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Moses 2019-2020

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TomW
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Re: Moses 2019-2020

Postby TomW » Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:03 pm

grigorib wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:02 pm
I’d call what’s happening now “a manufacturers’ transition to large area high aspect wings”

Evolution of foiling as I see it
- We started with shovel-shaped large thin wings
- Then we switched to small high aspect race wings
- Then we started adding back large thick wings and that’s when market exploded in demand because those were easy to ride. We adapted “surf/SUP” to kiting.
- Yet we still needed large high aspect thin wings for more freeride fun/speed and they seem to be coming. We’re adapting “windsurf” wings to kiting

We probably going to end up with three kinds of wings
- beginner wings - sturdy, large, low aspect, safe
- freeride wings - high aspect, thin, a line of sizes
- surf wings - high aspect, thick, a line of sizes

Once geometry of each model is set it would make perfect sense to replicate a line of sizes to accommodate a range from lightweight kiters to heavyweight windsurfers. And given interchangeability it would be easy to pick a high/low wind pair of wings for a rider of any weight and application
Agree!! At the risk of being flamed. Gong is doing it.

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Re: Moses 2019-2020

Postby airsail » Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:51 pm

grigorib wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:02 pm

- surf wings - high aspect, thick, a line of sizes

I disagree with the thick surf wings with a kitefoil. Having used thick and thin 1200 sqcm wings of identical plan shape, the thin wins every time. Is faster when required but looses nothing in the low end. The new Naish kite surf wings are ultra thin low aspect designs, maybe 12mm thick.

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Re: Moses 2019-2020

Postby grigorib » Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:10 pm

airsail wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:51 pm
grigorib wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:02 pm

- surf wings - high aspect, thick, a line of sizes

I disagree with the thick surf wings with a kitefoil. Having used thick and thin 1200 sqcm wings of identical plan shape, the thin wins every time. Is faster when required but looses nothing in the low end. The new Naish kite surf wings are ultra thin low aspect designs, maybe 12mm thick.
I meant that there are people and market fo thick slow wings for waves - for kite/wing/windsurf/surf/SUP/wake. Thickness impacts speed and some folks need that waterbrake to not outrun waves.

Lowend is more of function of the area and AR, yet I can see how higher aspect ends up more efficient and that’s why I believe higher aspect wings will take over intermediate riders sector just as they took over advanced riders
Last edited by grigorib on Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cwood
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Re: Moses 2019-2020

Postby cwood » Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:54 pm

a99 wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:46 pm
Tried 483, 425, 330 on 633.
So:
483 is worsest in general, to much lift in bigger speed and bad for foots regarding constant keeping pressure, no agile in turning at all, also higher stalling speed.
330 much much better,
but 425 is best of best in balance of all elements. I wrote about this stab few months ago, was first in this forum who wrote review about 425 on 633.
425 works perfectin lake and in sea and bigger or big waves equally. Very good balance,no uncontrolled lift and so one. Sad that Moses discontinued this rear wing.
Don’t have in mind to put 483 ever again on foil. Can’t understand why Moses so boosted this 483 on all sets.
Probably worst ever moses stabilizer of past two-three years.
Yup, same 483 put away, 425 moved from my race setup to permanent with 679....and new 421 with race wing which makes it even better!
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tkaraszewski
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Re: Moses 2019-2020

Postby tkaraszewski » Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:38 pm

grigorib wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:02 pm
I’d call what’s happening now “a manufacturers’ transition to large area high aspect wings”

Evolution of foiling as I see it
- We started with shovel-shaped large thin wings
- Then we switched to small high aspect race wings
- Then we started adding back large thick wings and that’s when market exploded in demand because those were easy to ride. We adapted “surf/SUP” to kiting.
- Yet we still needed large high aspect thin wings for more freeride fun/speed and they seem to be coming. We’re adapting “windsurf” wings to kiting

We probably going to end up with three kinds of wings
- beginner wings - sturdy, large, low aspect, safe
- freeride wings - high aspect, thin, a line of sizes
- surf wings - high aspect, thick, a line of sizes

Once geometry of each model is set it would make perfect sense to replicate a line of sizes to accommodate a range from lightweight kiters to heavyweight windsurfers. And given interchangeability it would be easy to pick a high/low wind pair of wings for a rider of any weight and application
I think this is fairly close to right. I think the manufacturers are jumping on "surf" wings not because people really want surf foils (some do, but many people foil in palces with no waves), but mostly because people want *easy* foils to ride, and these shapes are stable at low speeds.

For kitefoils, I think grigorib is right in that they'll go more high aspect, but bigger overall surface area than most older high aspect wings, and most freeriders will probably end up on foils in the 800-1200 sq cm range. The really big wings, 1500-2000 sq cm will be for slower sports, wingfoiling and SUP foiling, and the wings smaller than that will be for people who want to race or freeride at race speeds.

And three years from now either it'll all get changed up again and we'll be on something entirely different, or foils will start to "settle in" like twintips and surfboards that are pretty much the same as 10 years ago.

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Re: Moses 2019-2020

Postby grandeand » Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:15 pm

I don't find 483 that bad.
I have mast 101, with 683 and 483.
I am curious about the test of 450 and 425.
the latter seems impossible to find?

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Re: Moses 2019-2020

Postby max » Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:20 pm

grandeand wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:15 pm
I don't find 483 that bad.
I have mast 101, with 683 and 483.
I am curious about the test of 450 and 425.
the latter seems impossible to find?
compared to other stabilisers, the 483 dampens the liveliness and speed of the ride given on the 683/679 and the 633.

I suppose everything is personal taste. I thought the 483 was good also until I tried a smaller stab.

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Re: Moses 2019-2020

Postby Foil » Mon Aug 10, 2020 2:26 pm

I have the 425 stab to use with my 720 baltz pro moses front wing, which is the only one that works great as a combo,
tried the 633 with the small 330 and 325 stabs and they were flipping so unstable they were rubbish for me
the 633 with the 450 is good/great for strapless riders who love waves and hard carves, but keep speeds to under 20knts, its far too loose after that and too easy to crash out of control, jumping with straps on makes for many wipe outs as you power up hard ready to take off.

the 633 with my 425? I will give it a try, but it will need to better the 483 which I find just so good to use for everything, high speed looning around, very high boosting, pivot turns are fun,waves are superb, landing from boosting without touchdowns, just great at being very good
so i will give the 425 a shot, fingers crossed!
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max
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Re: Moses 2019-2020

Postby max » Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:30 pm

Foil wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 2:26 pm
I have the 425 stab to use with my 720 baltz pro moses front wing, which is the only one that works great as a combo,
tried the 633 with the small 330 and 325 stabs and they were flipping so unstable they were rubbish for me
the 633 with the 450 is good/great for strapless riders who love waves and hard carves, but keep speeds to under 20knts, its far too loose after that and too easy to crash out of control, jumping with straps on makes for many wipe outs as you power up hard ready to take off.

the 633 with my 425? I will give it a try, but it will need to better the 483 which I find just so good to use for everything, high speed looning around, very high boosting, pivot turns are fun,waves are superb, landing from boosting without touchdowns, just great at being very good
so i will give the 425 a shot, fingers crossed!
I have used the 325 and a stab like the 330 on the 679 and liked them. Have never tried them on the 633.

I also use the 420 stab with the 720 wing.

As for shimming the stab . . . I set it to work with the 679 and can swap out the front wing with the 633 and keep same stab angle but have to move the mast about 2" forward. Though I have found that the 720 needs a different stab angle to work well with the 420.

Interested to hear your thoughts on the 633 with the 425. Saw a 425 the other day on a race foil setup. It is bigger than the 420.

As for the 483, perhaps I needed to try changing its AOA (which I never did as I liked the smaller stabs once I changed to them)

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Re: Moses 2019-2020

Postby mr_daruman » Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:24 am

Would love to see more of these super maneuverable "Duck" wings for surf?
Main wing being in the back gives you that great back leg surf feel control. The smaller front wing makes the board super loose and playful. Both wings have lift, so you get same lift (no stabi) as a regular bigger foil but these can be smaller, further improving response. Keeps lift at super slow speeds (for that size of a wing!) , great when you want to stay in the pocket and actually surf the wave...and not blow by at mach speed, which most kitefoilers seem to do.
Picture is the larger sized one. My 10-20 knots wing. Rips in the surf.
duck.png
duck.png (508.67 KiB) Viewed 83 times
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