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About real small pocket boards < 1 m, benefits and limits

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Horst Sergio
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About real small pocket boards < 1 m, benefits and limits

Postby Horst Sergio » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:36 pm

Last time I used 3 different real pocket no-nose-boards of
around 90 x 35 cm
real-pocket-boards.jpg
and designed a further one. download/file.php?id=84845&mode=view


Here is what I learned and want to share:

First about the limits
The only relevant limit for me is, that the rider should be very safe doing flying tacks or jibes as < 1 m surface jibes are still possible but much harder than flying ones. Another disadvantage will be that you have to ride cleaner especially at higher speeds as touchdowns are possible, but not at the higher speeds and a small o better no stabi will be helpful to allow fast pitch reactions to prevent front food from cutting into the chop.
But thats it.
For sure also with a volume pocket you will have less volume, but still enough as long it is fat enough.

Significant disadvantage in low wind is a mythos, you may loose maximum 1 knt which is not to bad as it gives your kite one knot more to body drag you home when the wind dies. And for sure in the lowest lowend you can't combine a pocket board with a small wing and small kite, but as long at least one of the two is big the wing makes you flying right from the start or the looped kite just bombs you on your small wing and board. Used here a 580 cm2 wing and want to build one even smaller.
No-volume-atto.jpg
Benefit list is long
- much lower weight as also foil connection has much lower stress as there is no long lever nose touches the water while foil piches downwards pulling out front plugs (the way two of my long boads gets weak)
- much more freedom in movement due to low momentum of inertia.
- great to jump with lower risk and more freedom especially for foiloffs
- Much more compfortable on the beach and in the car trunk, if the board is also narrow even the strut can be shorter..

Only further disadvantage till now you don't get to many real pocket boads so have to build yourself.

Or anybody already experience with serial boards < 1 m?
I am sure there will be a market in the future with raising abilities of customers.
flying-goblin.jpg
Last edited by Horst Sergio on Thu Nov 22, 2018 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: About real small pocket boards < 1 m, benefits and limits

Postby gbrungra » Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:01 pm

Good summary.

I’m tempted to go small w my next foilboard. Mostly for travel.

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Re: About real small pocket boards < 1 m, benefits and limits

Postby theblutch » Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:12 am

Yeah at hundred percent !
I totally agree with your post espacially the Beneficit.
I ride a 85 cm board and don't want to go back, but i would not be more smaller than my actual.
However, i'm not sur about the market, because i think a lot of people are very afraid to ride a small board, they're afraid to lose stability, lightwind and ... and I think brands that sell real pocket board are so much expensive (but that's my own opinion) !

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Re: About real small pocket boards < 1 m, benefits and limits

Postby Peter_Frank » Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:17 pm

Having boards from 85 to 175 cm, 6 different sizes, but only considering pocket boards in this thread:

Really short pocket boards cons -

Nose scoop not possible, giving the first 4 cons here.
Can not be ridden on the surface really.
IF they should be ever so slightly ridden on the surface, the angle should be set so you stand awkward with front foot bent.
Extremely difficult to waterstart strapless, if trimmed for a natural stance, straps much better of course.
Any touchdown in chop/waves can lead to a crash, both going straight and in transitions and jumps.
If seaweed, you WILL touchdown often, no matter how skilled, not fun without a snub nose - but okay, doesnt matter as you have to stop anyways...
You have no chance of riding safely in lulls if not sufficient to foil, so practical low end is hugely compromised.
You will risk huge crashes when you land from high jumps nose first (in order to foil away) and get the timing off just a bit.
You have no flotation so when you drift ashore you can not sit on the board very well, or not at all.
Dragging out in onshore marginal winds is more difficult, harder, if a thin board no volume at least.


Really short pocket board pros -

Smaller so packing is easy.
Swing weight "mentally" is much better, no doubt.
Some think it is cool (but others think it looks odd so can be a pro as well as a con)


With a small or ultra small light board swing weight differences can not really be felt in my experience.
Nor can the difference when board dragging through waves- small or ultra small not any difference.
Weight difference can also be minimal, as you dont need strength nor stiffness in the nose really, only between your feet.


I love really small/short pocket boards, but only for the fun of "just doing it", as no practical advantages at all for me.

Maybe I am just too lousy at foiling, I know, but I suspect many to be at the same level and not like Horst's and this could be one reason why we have so different views :naughty:

But in general, going to the extremes is either for "just doing it", or a smaller niche IMO, no matter what we are talking about, could also be super small or super big kites or anything else - doesnt work well in the extremes, but some like that :rollgrin:

8) PF
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Horst Sergio
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Re: About real small pocket boards < 1 m, benefits and limits

Postby Horst Sergio » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:16 pm

I think perspective about material not only differs by skill but most used spots:
Worst choice ever done, was to take the green board configuration of the first post with an unknown surf foil dirctly into a big wave, which didn't work.

As I am myself most in lakes without to much white water, the small boards have their place, but also limits I want to discuss and exchange experience here, therefore following my 2 new "pocket" boards, even if the big one is a Skate "XS" 110 x 40 cm.

Both full custom and half custom have been build for me by Michele from Groove Kiteboards last month.
Skate-XS_&_Queen-Lily_1.jpg
The small board "Queen Lily" :) ... which can also be a bitchy princess :wink: ... is till now not necessarily a all day use board, but a as small as possible travel board and platform to try new stuff ...
Skate-XS_&_Queen-Lily_2.jpg
It has, what I would call a kickdown steptail, which allows to not just bring backfoot more backwards at speed, but to also keep forces balanced over the foil, when wing pitches down at speed and there fore both legs straight, which is important especially on monofoils. Works pretty good so far tested.
Skate-XS_&_Queen-Lily_3.jpg
The straps are connected with "Loxx" fasteners, which allow to repositioning, reset and remove straps as often you want within secounds, which also worked for long time tested by a friend. On my board Michele lowered the strap fundament area for me to make it more unlikely to step on the lower part of the connection system.
In the secound ride I already reset the position (size) of the straps on the water within a few secounds with winter gloves 8)
x-Loxx-Fastener_Straps2.jpg
Just installing the system as I have done to make sure it will stay stiff takes time to set up everything by 1/10 mm
Oh and I don't like to crack sandwich board during handling on the ground so a velcro all arround and an extra fat and straight nose protector to park the board on any ground.

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Re: About real small pocket boards < 1 m, benefits and limits

Postby MaximumAC » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:44 pm

Are those snap on straps? That looks neat and functional/safe

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Re: About real small pocket boards < 1 m, benefits and limits

Postby grigorib » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:45 pm

- there's no "travel advantage point" in making board shorter than the mast.
- pocket boards are not much compatible with riding on surface or touching down
- there's a great demand for pocket boards and very limited supply
- pocket boards are still overly expensive

After riding 36", the 42" seems to be long now :)

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Re: About real small pocket boards < 1 m, benefits and limits

Postby Laughingman » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:49 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:17 pm
Having boards from 85 to 175 cm, 6 different sizes, but only considering pocket boards in this thread:

Really short pocket boards cons -

Nose scoop not possible, giving the first 4 cons here.
Can not be ridden on the surface really.
IF they should be ever so slightly ridden on the surface, the angle should be set so you stand awkward with front foot bent.
Extremely difficult to waterstart strapless, if trimmed for a natural stance, straps much better of course.
Any touchdown in chop/waves can lead to a crash, both going straight and in transitions and jumps.
If seaweed, you WILL touchdown often, no matter how skilled, not fun without a snub nose - but okay, doesnt matter as you have to stop anyways...
You have no chance of riding safely in lulls if not sufficient to foil, so practical low end is hugely compromised.
You will risk huge crashes when you land from high jumps nose first (in order to foil away) and get the timing off just a bit.
You have no flotation so when you drift ashore you can not sit on the board very well, or not at all.
Dragging out in onshore marginal winds is more difficult, harder, if a thin board no volume at least.
Peter I wonder if maybe it was the board you have/had? I have no problem touching down with my 940mm board.
I also find water starting strapless with pocket board easier then a big floaty board.
Seaweed is going to cause a challenge for anyone on any size board
and as far as low end is concerned my foiling low end is way below what it would be surface riding unless the board could actually float 100% of my weight.

Dragging out with my 940cm board is way easier then my old 1400mm board. I just cannot agree with cons you have posted... I don't jump strapless so I cannot comment on that and I don't count on my board for flotation, I wear a floaty impact vest.... maybe for all those huge crashes you warn about....lol

Pros... well I recently had the opportunity to use my wings on a large board... I lost a lot of maneuverability, the difference in swing weight is very apparent. Also the drag when you touch down is greater, I actually flew off the front of the larger board. The same day tried a very floaty super lightweight board, I could actually feel the effect of the wind on the board. I very much prefer my small board.
way easier to travel with.
Big boards look goofy
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Re: About real small pocket boards < 1 m, benefits and limits

Postby Peter_Frank » Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:43 pm

Well, it is not very likely the boards I have used (many different ones), but probably because many of you are way more skilled than me, I respect that.

But there will also be many at my level, who will have the same issues with super short and small boards, I am not in doubt, many disadvantages as mentioned.

Just to be clear, I assume we are not talking about riding in quite flat water?

As this is never the case here, always waves or big chop or waves with big chop, thus shorter masts are pretty useless really.
This might also impact touchdowns with supershort boards?

Dont know, as never ride relatively flat water, just a thought...

Assume it must be the skill level difference though :roll:

8) Peter

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Re: About real small pocket boards < 1 m, benefits and limits

Postby Laughingman » Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:13 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:43 pm
Well, it is not very likely the boards I have used (many different ones), but probably because many of you are way more skilled than me, I respect that.

But there will also be many at my level, who will have the same issues with super short and small boards, I am not in doubt, many disadvantages as mentioned.

Just to be clear, I assume we are not talking about riding in quite flat water?

As this is never the case here, always waves or big chop or waves with big chop, thus shorter masts are pretty useless really.
This might also impact touchdowns with supershort boards?

Dont know, as never ride relatively flat water, just a thought...

Assume it must be the skill level difference though :roll:

8) Peter
I am pretty sure you've gained more skills over your many years of foiling then I have in my 1.25 years...
I cannot comment on longer vs shorter mast, My mast is 850mm long but I do foil in many different conditions, I often need to adjust my pitch before and after larger swell/chop in order to ride up and then down the other side.
As far as skills needed... you need to be in a place where you can switch your feet flying fairly well, I certainly would not want to touch down every time with a small board, but its possible as long as you keep your kite moving to keep on riding. That really goes for any board though, maybe more significant with a small board.

I certainly would not suggest a beginner start on a small board... that is a fair statement that i can agree on.


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