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About real small pocket boards < 1 m, benefits and limits

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stevez
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Re: About real small pocket boards < 1 m, benefits and limits

Postby stevez » Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:39 am

Horst Sergio wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:27 am
But as said, even with the low experience in waves I have. I am sure to cross white water bigger size is important. I have been happy here with my old exo 125 x 44 cm, but have some doupts if my actuall 110 x 40 cm will be big enough. But it is also much about the shape. The volume race shape in the small size is for that and for lowind start much worse than a flat in direct comparision of the shown green and red board, but I just need the volume to handle my foil kites in cold water with safety.
Touching down crossing bigger white water is not a viable strategy. A longer mast is your best friend, you want to clear it if possible. But if you are riding a smaller board, you've got a much better chance of surviving being clipped by white water as you cross over. You can get away with punching through the top of it more easily, with less board for the white water to catch.

For me the key observation that makes <1m more normal, is that when riding a genuine surf wing, you really don't plane at all. It's VTOL. So it comes down to what you need to stand on.

I was astonished how different and how much less agile, and less fun it felt when my 97cm board broke, and I had to go back to a 135cm board. So now I've built a new one that's 84cm, based on where I stood on the one that broke. This is a question of personal preference - based on where the footstraps are, Horst's stance looks a lot wider than widest I ever stand. When I get onto a wave, where I widen the stance about 5cm on either side from how I normally ride, but it's still never more than about 70-75cm.

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Re: About real small pocket boards < 1 m, benefits and limits

Postby slowboat » Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:50 am

stevez wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:39 am
Horst Sergio wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:27 am
But as said, even with the low experience in waves I have. I am sure to cross white water bigger size is important. I have been happy here with my old exo 125 x 44 cm, but have some doupts if my actuall 110 x 40 cm will be big enough. But it is also much about the shape. The volume race shape in the small size is for that and for lowind start much worse than a flat in direct comparision of the shown green and red board, but I just need the volume to handle my foil kites in cold water with safety.
Touching down crossing bigger white water is not a viable strategy. A longer mast is your best friend, you want to clear it if possible. But if you are riding a smaller board, you've got a much better chance of surviving being clipped by white water as you cross over. You can get away with punching through the top of it more easily, with less board for the white water to catch.

For me the key observation that makes <1m more normal, is that when riding a genuine surf wing, you really don't plane at all. It's VTOL. So it comes down to what you need to stand on.

I was astonished how different and how much less agile, and less fun it felt when my 97cm board broke, and I had to go back to a 135cm board. So now I've built a new one that's 84cm, based on where I stood on the one that broke. This is a question of personal preference - based on where the footstraps are, Horst's stance looks a lot wider than widest I ever stand. When I get onto a wave, where I widen the stance about 5cm on either side from how I normally ride, but it's still never more than about 70-75cm.
Agree. Echos what I wrote earlier about not needing bigger board for waves....in fact it is a detriment.

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Re: About real small pocket boards < 1 m, benefits and limits

Postby TomW » Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:02 pm

I've built my own 135-120-105-90cm boards with similar characteristics and build construction. They are all built using PU foam cores and glass/carbon lamination. 2,2 to 2,6 kg complete.
I've found no riding benefits below 105. 120cm is almost imperceptible difference to 105. 135 is noticeable difference because it reduces agility significantly.
The 90cm is just really short, it rides the same as the 105 in the air. On the surface it's more difficult.
I'm using same moses 93cm mast and 633 wingset on all of them.
These users thanked the author TomW for the post (total 2):
jumptheshark (Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:46 pm) • Peter_Frank (Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:48 am)
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Re: About real small pocket boards < 1 m, benefits and limits

Postby jatem » Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:11 am

slowboat wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:50 am
stevez wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:39 am
Horst Sergio wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:27 am
But as said, even with the low experience in waves I have. I am sure to cross white water bigger size is important. I have been happy here with my old exo 125 x 44 cm, but have some doupts if my actuall 110 x 40 cm will be big enough. But it is also much about the shape. The volume race shape in the small size is for that and for lowind start much worse than a flat in direct comparision of the shown green and red board, but I just need the volume to handle my foil kites in cold water with safety.
Touching down crossing bigger white water is not a viable strategy. A longer mast is your best friend, you want to clear it if possible. But if you are riding a smaller board, you've got a much better chance of surviving being clipped by white water as you cross over. You can get away with punching through the top of it more easily, with less board for the white water to catch.

For me the key observation that makes <1m more normal, is that when riding a genuine surf wing, you really don't plane at all. It's VTOL. So it comes down to what you need to stand on.

I was astonished how different and how much less agile, and less fun it felt when my 97cm board broke, and I had to go back to a 135cm board. So now I've built a new one that's 84cm, based on where I stood on the one that broke. This is a question of personal preference - based on where the footstraps are, Horst's stance looks a lot wider than widest I ever stand. When I get onto a wave, where I widen the stance about 5cm on either side from how I normally ride, but it's still never more than about 70-75cm.
Agree. Echos what I wrote earlier about not needing bigger board for waves....in fact it is a detriment.
I'll second that. I prefer a small board in swell, it's easier to keep it off the water in steep troughs, and you don't want to touch down on whitewater.

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Re: About real small pocket boards < 1 m, benefits and limits

Postby Peter_Frank » Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:49 am

TomW wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:02 pm
I've built my own 135-120-105-90cm boards with similar characteristics and build construction. They are all built using PU foam cores and glass/carbon lamination. 2,2 to 2,6 kg complete.
I've found no riding benefits below 105. 120cm is almost imperceptible difference to 105. 135 is noticeable difference because it reduces agility significantly.
The 90cm is just really short, it rides the same as the 105 in the air. On the surface it's more difficult.
I'm using same moses 93cm mast and 633 wingset on all of them.

Agree, this makes total sense, and if anyone should know, you should :thumb:

8) Peter

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Re: About real small pocket boards < 1 m, benefits and limits

Postby stevez » Sat Apr 06, 2019 5:01 am

TomW wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:02 pm
I've built my own 135-120-105-90cm boards with similar characteristics and build construction. They are all built using PU foam cores and glass/carbon lamination. 2,2 to 2,6 kg complete.
I've found no riding benefits below 105. 120cm is almost imperceptible difference to 105. 135 is noticeable difference because it reduces agility significantly.
The 90cm is just really short, it rides the same as the 105 in the air. On the surface it's more difficult.
I'm using same moses 93cm mast and 633 wingset on all of them.
I do pretty much agree - maybe the reduction below 1m is purely psychological. I think there still will be a difference in the air, maybe quite subtle. I've only had one session on the 84cm so far board so I don't know for sure, but it . On the surface - if we're talking about a proper surf wing, there is no "on the surface".
I do have other reasons for going really short - a truly portable setup I can take in public transport will create opportunities for sneaky sessions I wouldn't otherwise have. Not to mention the benefit of being able to get the full gear into regulation luggage on flights.
Let's see what everyone is riding a year or two from now. Pretty sure the 120 and 135 will be gathering dust.

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Re: About real small pocket boards < 1 m, benefits and limits

Postby max » Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:58 am

stevez wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 5:01 am
TomW wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:02 pm
I've built my own 135-120-105-90cm boards with similar characteristics and build construction. They are all built using PU foam cores and glass/carbon lamination. 2,2 to 2,6 kg complete.
I've found no riding benefits below 105. 120cm is almost imperceptible difference to 105. 135 is noticeable difference because it reduces agility significantly.
The 90cm is just really short, it rides the same as the 105 in the air. On the surface it's more difficult.
I'm using same moses 93cm mast and 633 wingset on all of them.
I do pretty much agree - maybe the reduction below 1m is purely psychological. I think there still will be a difference in the air, maybe quite subtle. I've only had one session on the 84cm so far board so I don't know for sure, but it . On the surface - if we're talking about a proper surf wing, there is no "on the surface".
I do have other reasons for going really short - a truly portable setup I can take in public transport will create opportunities for sneaky sessions I wouldn't otherwise have. Not to mention the benefit of being able to get the full gear into regulation luggage on flights.
Let's see what everyone is riding a year or two from now. Pretty sure the 120 and 135 will be gathering dust.


I have been riding a 105cm board for quite a long while now and thought I might miss the 126 but I have to say not. Touch downs from jumps are a bit trickier but still fine. Everything else feels more exciting.

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Re: About real small pocket boards < 1 m, benefits and limits

Postby tomtom » Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:16 am

Im tall guy 200cm and i think it also plays some role. If average guy is ca. 170cm rode 120 board - then for me is 140. I rode 135. I like to have some nose on board - to stand on very front of board feels odd to me.

And what about width? - Im thinking about narrower board. To made it less fuzzy about where to put feet in board width direction. I sometimes find myself too much on board edge after transition or water start. I like to be centered on mast. Narrower board will also catch less water in carves and width play bigger role in board area than lenght so white water has less area to catch . Also swing weight will be less even if it is not so obvious.

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Re: About real small pocket boards < 1 m, benefits and limits

Postby grigorib » Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:32 pm

Travel-wise there’s no much point having board shorter than a mast.
36” and 42” duffel bags are kind of attractive for travel, just as boards in these sizes

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Re: About real small pocket boards < 1 m, benefits and limits

Postby Horst Sergio » Thu May 02, 2019 2:56 pm

Made my peace with the most difficult combination I have now: 88 x 33 cm + volume water line + 110 cm strut + 580 cm² race wing + monofoil

If just taking away one of those points its much easier to start as even with a just no volume outline (green board on first page).

As It felt I learned a trick how to start allready two times, this time: here in short for those who may need it, especially when flying foil-kites (it is a kind of a jump start):

As especially on very small board with volume water line, there is no chance to use two loops to start (also one is not easy), as the deck will never keep you up during loop (especially not on short lines)
So you need first a very well powered foil-kite. Stall it down close to the water, let it start through wind window and in the moment you feel the power spike coming, pull it front hand down to fly straight in starting direction. That's all.
Try to stay with frontwing inside water and to accelerate during this "jump-start" to foil-wings minimum flying speed. :D Then the fun can start.

And even if the volume shape is much worse for start of small wings, for touchdowns at speed it could be better, than no volume shapes (green board)
Here is the new setup config:
Kitejunkies-Queen-Lily-Freerace-Mono-2.jpg
And I know the setup especially with 22 cm more strut than board, does not make, sense but a f1 car also does not, but can be fun to ride and my f1 is nearly CO2 free :wink:
Started a bit to jump it, while finish is not yet ready but felt already very very nice :D


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