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Does board volume still matter for water starts?

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fun2kite
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Re: Does board volume still matter for water starts?

Postby fun2kite » Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:41 am

If you don't touch down during transitions, you almost don't need volume with large wing like Onda.

There is also a difference during the re-launch of the kite in the water. (when you need to sit on the board) and during self-rescue if you use the board to float yourself and your kite (especially foil kite) and paddle back in.

So.. there are more critical aspects to a volume board other than water-start.

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Re: Does board volume still matter for water starts?

Postby Kamikuza » Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:41 am

plummet wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:57 pm
I personally see zero need for volume. However in ultralight winds additional surface area would be of benefit.

Oh, Maybe one use for volume could be floatation if the wind dies and you want to use the board as a floatation device.
I agree with this.

I've used Alien Air and Double Agent boards back to back, pretty much the extremes in volume. No noticeable difference in water starts, or even really transitions, so long as the board had speed.

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Re: Does board volume still matter for water starts?

Postby SENDIT! » Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:33 pm

Kamikuza wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:41 am
plummet wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:57 pm
I personally see zero need for volume. However in ultralight winds additional surface area would be of benefit.

Oh, Maybe one use for volume could be floatation if the wind dies and you want to use the board as a floatation device.
I agree with this.

I've used Alien Air and Double Agent boards back to back, pretty much the extremes in volume. No noticeable difference in water starts, or even really transitions, so long as the board had speed.
Wow, really? In marginal winds (which is when I did this), I could never get going on the Double Agent, but COULD on the X-Breed Foil (essentially a surboard w/ foil tracks). This was back to back and the only variable was the board. What else would it be? :?:

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Re: Does board volume still matter for water starts?

Postby slowboat » Mon Dec 24, 2018 10:46 pm

SENDIT! wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:33 pm
Kamikuza wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:41 am
plummet wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:57 pm
I personally see zero need for volume. However in ultralight winds additional surface area would be of benefit.

Oh, Maybe one use for volume could be floatation if the wind dies and you want to use the board as a floatation device.
I agree with this.

I've used Alien Air and Double Agent boards back to back, pretty much the extremes in volume. No noticeable difference in water starts, or even really transitions, so long as the board had speed.
Wow, really? In marginal winds (which is when I did this), I could never get going on the Double Agent, but COULD on the X-Breed Foil (essentially a surboard w/ foil tracks). This was back to back and the only variable was the board. What else would it be? :?:
May have something to do with foil you were using. If it is not a high lift foil, most will agree that volume matters.

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Re: Does board volume still matter for water starts?

Postby Kamikuza » Tue Dec 25, 2018 2:59 am

SENDIT! wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:33 pm
Kamikuza wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:41 am
I agree with this.

I've used Alien Air and Double Agent boards back to back, pretty much the extremes in volume. No noticeable difference in water starts, or even really transitions, so long as the board had speed.
Wow, really? In marginal winds (which is when I did this), I could never get going on the Double Agent, but COULD on the X-Breed Foil (essentially a surboard w/ foil tracks). This was back to back and the only variable was the board. What else would it be? :?:
Yeah. Better to resist & load the kite and pop onto the foil than to get up onto the board and then try to develop board speed on a sinking board. I'm heavier than you are though...

That was with the HG and the DA wings too, no mods.

With the Axis 820 wing I find it harder (although unnecessary) to pop up onto the foil with board speed. Easier to stroke the kite to get up then board speed, as you're usually on the foil when you get out of the water.

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Re: Does board volume still matter for water starts?

Postby joriws » Tue Dec 25, 2018 8:35 am

If your board is on volume-mode it means it has to be submerged and have water on top for boyuancy. Because volume displaces water for lift and boyuancy depth is relation of lift and mass you have on top of it. Underwater you have a lot of drag because your feet, straps, deck rubber etc increases it when moving. So you need kite-power to fight it but most likely you'll fail.

Same is frontal wave on sub-planing speed but board completely on area-mode. You need power to climb out of it and accelerate to planing speed.

I use original LF alu-foil and foil-fish board. Board has minimal volume but bottom area like door twintip. I've never observed that I'd need more volume. More rocker and different shape of tip for touchdowns would be nice but not volume. (Lighter foil for sure too.)

The issue is to get to planing speed very similar to twintip, then you can immediately engage foil because there is enough flow on foil wing. Too high aoa (too early engagement) is just drag. Basic speed is a must and that is not volumetric issue.

Volume-kiting is SUP-kiting where all your mass is carried by sup- or surf-board. And work kite for speed until foil lift-off speed is achieved. Can be done but would you like to use 100l boards or for us heaviers 150l boards with 4m length.

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Re: Does board volume still matter for water starts?

Postby jumptheshark » Tue Dec 25, 2018 5:02 pm

The wing is always in play. furthermore its really efficient at lifting... more than simple surface area, which in turn is way more influential than volume. You are never just riding or getting up on the board. The lateral resistance the kite sees is wing and board combined. Getting up is a crouch maneuver that can be done with pretty good efficiency and timing. volume is not very important until you are in super light wind.

All of it is skill dependant.

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Re: Does board volume still matter for water starts?

Postby Mossy 757 » Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:30 pm

jakemoore wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:00 am
I think a no volume board is an easier waterstart especially in light winds.
How in the world did you engineer a no-volume board?!?! What kind of crazy quantum singularity did you need to shape that out of in order to have a board with 0 volume!?!!



...unless of course, you all mean "buoyancy" ;-)

My take is that it has more to do with how your kite creates its pulling moment. Some kites you can sheet in and get torque immediately as it sinks back in the window during a power stroke, and in this case you get steady propulsion to make the foil fly; no buoyancy needed. With kites that generate power with apparent wind (race kites or light wind designs) you generally need to get going a bit before the kite is really in its sweet spot, so if you can't do that easily from a waterstart, it's helpful to have a platform to stand on to help the kite generate traction and therefore apparent wind before engaging the foil with a quick rear-foot pump and riding away.

Another way to say that might be:

Huge wing, grunty kite, good breeze = who cares about buoyancy?

Smaller wing, high aspect kite, soft breeze = more margin for error with a more buoyant board.

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Re: Does board volume still matter for water starts?

Postby Peter_Frank » Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:34 pm

Apparently extremely different opinions it seems :roll:

Although most says volume doesnt matter :wink:

Now the question is, what IS a water start?

It is the act of getting up on your board, and up foiling, right?

A few days ago I experienced being out really powered, maybe 8 knots with a 13 m2 LEI on long lines, on a 1200 cm2 big Surf wing, and a big area board 130 cm quite wide, so loads of power.

But nevertheless, when the wind dropped, maybe 5-6 knots max, I could still just manage to get on the board, but to absolutely no avail, as it would sink so deep that foiling was utterly impossible.
The kite even when sheeted out, tends to "hang" on the upturn, when looped, so no power here, and when it gets speed and more power, it can only help bring the board closer to the surface, but never up at speed, till the next "powerlull" all LEI kites got in low winds when looped, sinks the board again.

With a board with more volume, I would have been able to ride on the surface, and get ashore much faster this way even if the wind dropped further - but most likely I would have been able to pump the wing up foiling, maybe using a wave as they help immensely, especially when your board is free on the surface.

This wasnt even in marginal winds, but in "typical" kitefoiling winds - just a drop in wind like it happens quite often here in the winter (not so much in summer luckily)


Standing on the quite big but thin board and big wing, water over my waist, getting nowhere (@75 kg right now)

4.jpg


Even these waves didnt help at all later, when sunk so deep....

2.jpg


As seen here, it is not area that is lacking, but volume

5.jpg


The next day something similar happened, just with an 8 m2 kite and a shorter board in a lot more wind maybe 11-12 knots, sweetspot wind at first, but dropped, so board would sink no matter what, eventhough it would have been possible to foil with a bigger and floatier board, and at least get ashore a lot more comfortable instead of dragging in the cold winter water.
An 8 m2 gives you a lot of peak power when looped, so possible to get on the board, but as the power is lost during the loop also when only say 8-9 knots on normal lines, board wont come to the surface, and not a chance of getting up foiling :(


The day after, full power at first on the 118:

5.jpg

So this is why I say volume matters a lot, not only surface area eventhough it helps also of course...

Yes, you might just say I am a lousy rider, and maybe you are right about that - but I know for sure many are in this category, and many got wind that changes a lot :naughty:

Of course, if there is loads of wind relative to your kite, so you can just dive or loop yourself into foiling in one dive or loop, volume doesnt matter, but that is evident and not the question, right?

8) Peter

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Re: Does board volume still matter for water starts?

Postby pcloud » Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:36 am

So PF, give me a number. In the situations you described where you think more volume would have got you going, how much volume? 15L, 20L, 25 or 30L or more?


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