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Does board volume still matter for water starts?

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Kamikuza
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Re: Does board volume still matter for water starts?

Postby Kamikuza » Fri Dec 28, 2018 12:16 pm

pcloud wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:36 am
So PF, give me a number. In the situations you described where you think more volume would have got you going, how much volume? 15L, 20L, 25 or 30L or more?
I went from 18L (IIRC) to just under 40L. Back to 25 (IIRC) now. I noticed no difference in Absolute Low End ability.

Bigger kites (foils) combined with longer lines give more bottom end, and more volume might give you a smidgen more, but ultimately, in my opinion you lose more than you gain.

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Re: Does board volume still matter for water starts?

Postby jakemoore » Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:41 am

Mossy 757 wrote:
Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:30 pm
How in the world did you engineer a no-volume board?!?! What kind of crazy quantum singularity
LOL. I take no credit for the engineering. Its a Crazy-Fly Chill-Deck prototype. I estimate 5 liters based on published stats. Its low volume no doubt, enough to float the foil and not much more.

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Re: Does board volume still matter for water starts?

Postby jakemoore » Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:55 am

slowboat wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:16 am
This makes sense. For gentle touchdowns, is the right rocker most important?
My favorite so far is the LF Galaxy. I broke it by running aground. Now i'm switching between a Dwarfcraft and the Crazy-Fly Chill prototype. Both of the shaped high volume boards are nicer in a touchdown by far. I don't know what made me like the Galaxy better. Both have chined rails and I think that helps a lot. According to my failing memory the Galaxy had a lighter construction, more elliptical outline, more nose scoop, less thickness and volume, and a vee-bottom.

I ride the Chill-Deck in lighter winds because I can get going. Its brutal if you clip the nose in a wave or chop and at my level that happens a lot. I would compare it to the Spleene-Door of foil boards.

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Re: Does board volume still matter for water starts?

Postby jakemoore » Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:24 am

Peter_Frank wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:34 pm
But nevertheless, when the wind dropped, maybe 5-6 knots max, I could still just manage to get on the board, but to absolutely no avail, as it would sink so deep that foiling was utterly impossible.
Peter_Frank, there is no doubt in my mind I could get on foil if I can get into the position you show in the photo. You have a 15 kg advantage on me for light wind riding and years more experience foiling, so I can only assume its the gear that makes it possible for me.

I covet the Ketos boards for free-riding. But they have quite a bit more scoop in the nose and a convex bottom compared to this Crazy-Fly board that is very flat except a small nose rocker. Could it be drag from the shape of the board? If the comparison helps, the Crazy-Fly board comes off plane and starts to sink under my 90 kg at 5 knots of board speed. I wonder how that compares to the Ketos boards? I need 8 knots of board speed to foil up.
Peter_Frank wrote:
Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:34 pm
The kite even when sheeted out, tends to "hang" on the upturn, when looped, so no power here, and when it gets speed and more power, it can only help bring the board closer to the surface, but never up at speed, till the next "powerlull" all LEI kites got in low winds when looped, sinks the board again.
Also my kite is 1.7 kg as long as I keep it dry. It sits at zenith when one strut tube kites won't fly. Also it makes a good up-stroke power spike on 30 meter lines in the winds you are talking about. I have had to swim it in more than once, pushing my low volume board and foil in front of me and dragging the kite behind. Board volume is definitely nice for the swim in. But I can get going in light winds.

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Re: Does board volume still matter for water starts?

Postby Peter_Frank » Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:57 pm

No, it is not about gear jakemoore, numbers are useless so comparing makes no sense...
It was just a rough example to give everyone an idea about the situation where volume helps and REALLY can be felt in a good way, and the opposite, lack of volume sucks.

No matter what gear we use, we all got a lower limit in lulls where we simply can not get the board up to the surface anymore, nor keep consistent pull in the kite, so it is these conditions I talk about, where volume is beneficial :thumb:

8) PF

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Re: Does board volume still matter for water starts?

Postby Peter_Frank » Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:07 pm

To the original question from slowboard, as these extremely different answers apparently comes from different riders using different gear and having different "angles", my take is:


Does board volume matter for water starts?

Normally, with medium or big wings like used by most today, NO, volume is only a downside, no doubt :thumb:
So the old saying that bigger boards (area and volume) are better when you are a new rider, is somewhat an old myth that mostly made sense when only smaller max medium wings were available.
Yes, you can start a tad earlier and learn to make surface transitions easier, with a bigger board when you are a beginner - but after that, no advantages apart from self rescues.
If you learn strapless, volume is a downside also, too difficult.
So in typical foiling conditions, using bigger wings, board volume does not matter, I agree fully :D

For racewings, volume is a necessity when in the low end, as you need to get some glide speed before you can foil on fast small low cambered wings.

In the utmost marginal winds, volume matters a lot, for all kinds of riders and wings.

Then we have the situations with any kite and wind, where the wind lulls a lot, here volume helps in order to avoid a full stop, and to get up foiling again, thus when riding in the lower end (not marginal) and foreseeing the wind might often both drop for a while (or pick up), choosing a tad bigger board will help you foil easier from the surface in these lulls, and you can usually waterstart to the surface a bit earlier also, and last but not least, glide to shore a lot faster and for sure have a much better chance to get up foiling again.

8) PF

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Kamikuza
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Re: Does board volume still matter for water starts?

Postby Kamikuza » Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:05 am

Peter_Frank wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 10:57 pm
can not get the board up to the surface anymore, nor keep consistent pull in the kite, so it is these conditions I talk about, where volume is beneficial :thumb:
If you're relying on volume to start then more volume is beneficial.

But at the moment I'm convinced that the kite and especially technique make more of a difference than volume will -- until your board is very large.


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