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Fast wave hydrofoiling.

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Re: Fast wave hydrofoiling.

Postby SimonP » Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:02 am

The few times that I have kited Tai Rd it has been very cross-off. It would be very difficult to keep the speed under control when bottom turning on a foil board.
I reckon you should have a go on a modern foil Plummet. A "slow" foil is still as quick as a surfboard, it just doesn't turn the same way. I am loving the J-shapes Cruzer foil for kiting. It is the same setup that guys are using for tow-surfing the Raglan bar, and that can be a pretty fast wave.
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Re: Fast wave hydrofoiling.

Postby slowboat » Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:45 am

Peter_Frank wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:03 pm
cor wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:48 pm
tkaraszewski wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:53 pm
I don't understand how these guys can keep up with this wave just fine on regular surfboards doing lots of carving turns that slow them down but you can't keep up with it on a fast foil.
I don't understand that either.
It does not make sense to me either :roll:

Maybe it is because you are more interested in high speed along the wave, than surfing/turning, or?

We dont have waves with much speed, but when kite surfboards can ride like that in the video, it should be no problem even with a much bigger wing I would think, especially when you ride so powered :D
Would even say these waves looks like a much bigger surf wing would work better.

8) Peter
Not really understanding surfboard analogy. Different forces involved. Unlike the foil, the surfboard is speeding downhill pulled by gravity.

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Re: Fast wave hydrofoiling.

Postby Regis-de-giens » Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:57 am

Nice video. Yeah I agree, without being a foilsurf expert, it seems that wave speed is slow enough for any hydrofoil driven in large curves.

@Slowboat about surfboard analogy : to me the foil accelerates similarly as a surfboard when you go down the wave. Ok YOU pilot the hydrofoil wing instead of being imposed by the water surface, but mean result is the same : lift angle of the wing will rotate frontward when you follow the wave surface , this will accelerate the rider exactly as if he was gliding (downward) on top of the wave surface, don't you think ?
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Re: Fast wave hydrofoiling.

Postby slowboat » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:45 am

I don’t think a slow wing will work here. Slow wings are big and with the energy in waves this big, plus lift of kite, there is just too much LIFT for high performance riding. Secondly, with big slow wings, it becomes very hard to get to the sections you want to get to.

To kite foil waves like this, you need a fast foil and the skills to turn it tightly at speed and to link those turns. Not sure many riders can do that. I know I can’t.

As an analogy, I can do anything I want in 3-4 foot waves with my surf foil but when the waves become head high. I just experience too much lift and when I do get on a wave, I don’t have the experience to handle the speed and am just holding on. Plummet’s location just takes this challenge to the next level.

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Re: Fast wave hydrofoiling.

Postby plummet » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:22 am

I would love to try a j shapes Simon. They look oh for awesome!

Personally, i find the foil interaction with the wave way different to the surface board. The wave presents its self to the foil as lift push as apposed to acceleration via a gravitational drop. Yes you have to follow the wave surface and there is some gravitational speed. But primarily its the lift you feel. That lift is usually lower down on the face than the gravitational drop on a surface board.

When you combine the additional wave lift with the foil speed, the gravitational speed, and power from the kite due to the cross off wind you end up with a heap of lift and speed. When i started riding these waves all that extra lift would just drive the foil out of the water leading to a crash. I've backed the stab aoa right off so its loose AF and now I can control the huge lift the wave/wind provides.

I'm certainly getting better. The last time i was out i crashed my brains out on almost every wave i rode. This time i maybe spudded in 2 our of 15 waves. I managed to ride the faces for a while and toward the end of my session get closer to the impact zone.

More ride time is in order and i think some wing building might need to occur also.

So if you were to build a wing for this wave what would it look like?

I'm thinking like the stringfellow wing. Low aspect in the center tappering to higher aspect tips. Thin wing profile to allow for higher speeds, 600-700 cm2 to allow for stability. Perhaps some anhedral for stabilty in the carve,

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Re: Fast wave hydrofoiling.

Postby slowboat » Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:19 pm

So if the discussion is trying to come up with a foil that can do what the surfboards are doing in this wave, what’s the point of trying to foil it? Besides the challenge. It seems the real advantage of foiling in waves is in the smaller waves that you can’t really catch with a surfboard.

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Re: Fast wave hydrofoiling.

Postby stevez » Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:30 pm

Based on the video, I agree that a fully fledged surf wing in that wind would be inappropriate.
The stringy wing is great for foiling at speed in waves. It has a very loose feel, even a bit wobbly if you're not used to it - on a wave this translates into an ability to turn effortlessly at speed - other foils I've tried have more of a tendency to lock in at speed, and need more effort to carve, especially after the surge of speed as you drop in. Maybe because it's got no anhedral in the wing or the stabiliser, just little winglets and a short fuse.
I still think something in the 1000cm2 is a good size for that terrain. The surface is quite bumpy and choppy and there's a lot of white water around, which makes general riding around and transitions more challenging. I'm riding the new stringy wing quite a lot lately. It has a surface area of about 1200cm2 I think, but still a very thin profile - no thicker than the original. I'd back it to be fast enough to ride those waves, yet user friendly enough to still be fun in those conditions - of couse still a challenge.

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Re: Fast wave hydrofoiling.

Postby drsurf » Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:38 pm

Here's the solution plummet. Invite other foilers, (NZ & beyond), to come and have a foil in your area... on the proviso that they give you a go on their foils :D
The biggest problem you face is you can't make all the variations that potentially go into making the best foil/s for you and your conditions in your lifetime. Get some foilers with a variety of different foils and try them out. Then buy the one that works best or make a precise copy of it or it's best attributes. For example I was quite surprised by the performance of a race wing which made going fast easy & controllable and also got up on the foil at quite a slow speed. This is also a great way to meet people with a common interest as well.

There has been a lot of change in foils over the past year which will continue for a while yet. I've tried about half a dozen different foils recently, freeride, surf and race, and all of them had attributes that were unique and about half being desirable enough to have in your own quiver for various conditions. It helps if you use a foil system which has a lot of interchangeability between components to save money. Otherwise this thread could go on and on...

Have fun, Dave

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Re: Fast wave hydrofoiling.

Postby Peter_Frank » Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:50 pm

Hmmm, interesting, apparently absolutely no consensus about what will work here, or in general :roll:

With my big wings 800 and 1200 cm2, I have never experienced the foil seeking to "lift" out of the water, not at higher speed nor when dropping down a waveface (but havent used both in really big waves, only bigger waves, so can not say if different...)

Whereas some of you experience being lifted out of the water you write?

Very odd this difference in experience, and maybe we should start here, to find out WHY we experience this so differently?

Is it because some of you got a wing/trim that require more front foot pressure at higher speeds maybe, where others are neutral?

Or is it because some ride at insanely higher speeds than others, thus our experiences dont match each other really?

Or is it because ones current wing, no matter what size, accelerates down the wavefaces where you often have the kite high, thus it will be the KITE that lifts you out of the water, not the foil?

If we can not find the reason for above totally opposite experiences, I would say it will be impossible to guide anyone to the choice of wing for bigger and faster waves :wink:

Must say I still dont get it, every full sized or RC glider can be trimmed to be neutral at any speed (meaning it wont lift "up"), no matter how high/fast you go (nor how powered if motor), and the same goes for a hydrofoil.
The only difference will be a big and/or very cambered wing will have a lot more drag thus not be able to ride/fly as fast, but not more lift at higher speeds.

This is the same with hydrofoils in my experience :D

Dont understand what you mean by "lift push" as opposed to "gravitational drop" - whats the diffence???

Might be wrong, but I see and feel the wave acting the very same way to surface boards as well as hydrofoils, the major difference being the foil accelerates so fast that you can get kite overpowered extremely fast, especially if too fast wings where it gets even worse - this is one of the advantages of the big surf wings actually, they are easier to control as they dont accelerate to the impossible.

8) Peter

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Re: Fast wave hydrofoiling.

Postby juandesooka » Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:45 pm

Peter's post above helps highlight why we'll never get a consensus on something like this: we are all in different areas, with different conditions, different interests, and different skills. We may think we are all on the same page, but I've seen so many discussions here where 20 pages in, it becomes obvious that we're comparing the flavour of apples and oranges and mangos. There's just so many variations in style and conditions. If we were foiling together on the same beach on a given day, then maybe we'd find common ground ... short of that, not really.

I believe what everyone is talking about with "too much lift" is gaining speed to the point of losing control, ending up with a catastrophic surface breach. Contributing factors may be too big a kite, too big a wing, the added acceleration from a large wave, or lack of appropriate skill/technique.

For the latter, I got a small taste of that last season on a breakthrough day, where I realized I wasn't committing enough front foot pressure to make the drop on larger waves. Just like dropping in on a skateboard half pipe, you need your weight forward or you'll fall back. But it feels very uncomfortable at first to point your foil downhill like this. And similar to that half pipe (and maybe mountain biking too), I think it's one of those situations where you are actually safer to commit to the acceleration and go faster, rather than attempt to hold back and be conservative. So there's another variable in attempting to successfully drop into a wave vertically and ride a top to bottom style.

But if you tried to use my Slingshot 84 sup foil wing with its 2000cm2 surface area in those NZ waves, it wouldn't matter how skilled you are, I guarantee anyone would breach the wing immediately upon dropping in. It simply has too much lift to be able to handle those speeds. IMHO
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