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Surf/wave wing thickness and NACA profiles

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tomtom
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Re: Surf/wave wing thickness and NACA profiles

Postby tomtom » Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:25 pm

jumptheshark wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:06 pm
Plummet,

Your a confessed speedster. Everything I've read points to the logic that thin profiles preserve more top end speed where thicker profiles provide more lift at lower speeds. For kiting, especially your style and conditions, I would think it makes sense to stick to a relatively thin profile. Thick profiles might be great for the people pioneering the Peak 4 style of kitefoiling, where the goal is to have as much time on the wave with no drive from the kite. Similar to wing foiling.

Thin profile seems like a much better fit for people in big waves with high swell speed, and those on the other end in piddly little wind driven swell that in open water are short lived and cannot provide much in the line of long unsupported rides.

I've made peace with the fact that I'll always want the kite to be actively involved in my foiling. I have to be able to shut it off, but not for very long. I would imagine you are in the same boat for very different reasons. Boat speed is important to both of us. This style of riding is likely a lot less suited to the thicker types of SUP and Surf specific wings.

I see a clip like this and wonder if those on Peak 4 identify in the same way. I also wonder if its even possible to rip around at that pace with a thicker profile wing.

viewtopic.php?f=196&t=2398613&start=40
About that clip. When i first saw it I want to just write - everything he does will be just like this only little bit better with PEAKs. About wing profile. My wing is 633. I dont know where to put this wing by today standards, but everything what he is doing is possible on 633/Peak combo. In fact this is how i ride /not quite refined for sure/ I never film myself so maybe i just think i ride like that :). I would not call that waveriding though. 633 is quite fast. People reach 25 knot on it. I rode Neil pryde Glide M wing - which should be similar to 633 and its is not by far. It is SLOW. I know i cannot ride like that on NP so no i dont think its possible to ride like that on thicker profile.
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tomtom
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Re: Surf/wave wing thickness and NACA profiles

Postby tomtom » Wed Dec 18, 2019 9:34 pm

plummet wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:20 pm
I am hearing you re thin profiles. My current thinking is a similar profile thickness to what I have now and gaining some stability through anhedral/dihedral rather than thickness and surface area.

Imo surface area up to 1200cm is not problem if profile are thin. Is 25 knts capable Onda 633 slow? I know that it can go faster than i able to cope with in rough sea.

About roll stability - it is 90% wingspan. Pitch stability is stab size and fuse length. What is nice about Onda is delta shape. It can be ridiculously flared without stall - this is where Onda lowend came from.
Think about concorde or space shuttle - they dont even have flaps. What they do to have lift at slow speed is FLARE shit of them - without stall /delta shape wings/.
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tkaraszewski
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Re: Surf/wave wing thickness and NACA profiles

Postby tkaraszewski » Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:00 am

kitexpert wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:44 pm

All wings roughly same lift? No, bigger and thicker wings give you more lift, just like bigger (and thicker) kite does. Variable is the board speed, big wing can lift you up in slow speed, small wing needs more speed of course.
They give you the same amount of lift at different speeds. The amount of lift generated is enough to balance your weight. Like you said, if you generate too much lift, the wing will fly up out of the water. So hydrofoils operate at roughly constant lift, enough to offset the weight of the rider. They do this at different speeds, of course.

But if a 80kg rider is riding a wing generating 100kg of lift, the wing's going to come out of the water, so he needs to go slower or change AOA to reduce lift.

This isn't to say a bigger/thicker wing wouldn't be capable of producing more lift than a smaller/ thinner one, just that for a given rider, to stay on foil but with the wing still in the water, there's a fairly constant amount of lift required.

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Re: Surf/wave wing thickness and NACA profiles

Postby Jugglajon » Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:46 am

I was out on my Axis 680 surf wing today in about 30/35knots with a 4m Uno here on Isla Holbox. Its the first wing that I've used that allowed me to easily match the wave speed and really feel and ride the waves whilst kiting. The uno helped to as it just drifted along with me.

The 680 has quite a thick profile in the centre and a gulwing. surface area is 1120cm2, the chord is 200mm and the thickness in the centre is definitely greater than 20mm, not having calipers handy i'd not like to put a number to it yet. but this very conservative estimate puts the middle of the wing at >10% chord to thickness
It feels very smooth at various angles of attack.
I'll try to measure the thickness of it tomorrow.

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Re: Surf/wave wing thickness and NACA profiles

Postby airsail » Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:30 am

plummet wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:09 pm
airsail wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:15 pm
Just finished and ridden my latest wing. Initial was 1.2” thick, (30 mm) about 1100 sqcm. This one is .66” thick but 1200 sqcm.
The thick wing has a roughness about it, I think caused by buffeting of the rear stab by the thick wing. The new wing is smooth and silent, gained about 4 knots in top speed, about 22 knots and crazy low speed.
In my experience a thin, large area wing is preferable to a thick slow wing. It provides enough speed to link swell sections and not boring to ride when covering distances.
Can you share a picture or 2 of your creation?
I found the thicker wings weren’t very good for 360 and roll tacks, just not much glide and a lot of lift as you rotate and I kept getting thrown off. The thin wing makes things easy.
The wings are modelled off the Naish med surf, which is a great design and easy to copy.
The original wing is 1050 sqcm 1860gms, my latest is 1200sqcm and 489 gms
Attachments
2B2CE3E4-3386-42E5-A64E-3B504B9C4A01.jpeg
902616C0-1AEC-49B0-B69B-421855608FF0.jpeg

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Jugglajon
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Re: Surf/wave wing thickness and NACA profiles

Postby Jugglajon » Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:47 am

took my thicker axis wing out again today, its fine for roll tacks, 360s, however the timing is very different to my smaller faster wings. Those wings look sick, nice work.

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Re: Surf/wave wing thickness and NACA profiles

Postby plummet » Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:03 am

airsail wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:30 am
plummet wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:09 pm
airsail wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:15 pm
Just finished and ridden my latest wing. Initial was 1.2” thick, (30 mm) about 1100 sqcm. This one is .66” thick but 1200 sqcm.
The thick wing has a roughness about it, I think caused by buffeting of the rear stab by the thick wing. The new wing is smooth and silent, gained about 4 knots in top speed, about 22 knots and crazy low speed.
In my experience a thin, large area wing is preferable to a thick slow wing. It provides enough speed to link swell sections and not boring to ride when covering distances.
Can you share a picture or 2 of your creation?
I found the thicker wings weren’t very good for 360 and roll tacks, just not much glide and a lot of lift as you rotate and I kept getting thrown off. The thin wing makes things easy.
The wings are modelled off the Naish med surf, which is a great design and easy to copy.
The original wing is 1050 sqcm 1860gms, my latest is 1200sqcm and 489 gms
Nice. Your swaying me to build a larger surface area thin profile wing..... I like the idea of retaining speed control with a thinner profile while adding stability with surface area and anhedral.

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Re: Surf/wave wing thickness and NACA profiles

Postby plummet » Fri Dec 27, 2019 10:23 pm

Hey men,

Can you chuck me some of your wings aspect ratios? and wing spans

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Re: Surf/wave wing thickness and NACA profiles

Postby plummet » Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:43 pm

Check this wing design out.

I'd like your thoughts on it.

800cm²
620x165
25mm sweep back
50mm anhedral
Thickness 9% of chord
Eppler 387 profile





https://a360.co/2MD1kba
Untitled.png
Attachments
Front wing 800 e387 Drawing v1.pdf
(316.92 KiB) Downloaded 11 times

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Peter_Frank
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Re: Surf/wave wing thickness and NACA profiles

Postby Peter_Frank » Sat Dec 28, 2019 11:03 pm

Should work just fine.

Medium AR and a very lifting profile, quite low drag, so good for riding slow and high angles, and still an okay "smallish" size (area) so you can keep speed.

8) Peter


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