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starting on duck tack to toeside

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slowboat
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starting on duck tack to toeside

Postby slowboat » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:19 am

It seems this is mostly about getting the kite around.....should I practice first on a directional?

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Re: starting on duck tack to toeside

Postby Laughingman » Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:04 pm

Really good how to.


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Re: starting on duck tack to toeside

Postby Slappysan » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:17 pm

Learning to duck tack is actually quite challenging and if you can't nail it on a SB you're probably better off learning it there first. That being said, there are some people that only ride HF these days and if you are one of them by all means work on your duck tacks.

The above video is misleading IMO. I would not call that a duck tack, it's just an upwind carve to toeside. To be a duck tack you need to change your feet.
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Re: starting on duck tack to toeside

Postby Laughingman » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:14 am

Slappysan wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:17 pm
Learning to duck tack is actually quite challenging and if you can't nail it on a SB you're probably better off learning it there first. That being said, there are some people that only ride HF these days and if you are one of them by all means work on your duck tacks.

The above video is misleading IMO. I would not call that a duck tack, it's just an upwind carve to toeside. To be a duck tack you need to change your feet.
so in order to ride out toeside you would have to begin toeside....lol

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Re: starting on duck tack to toeside

Postby OzBungy » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:54 am

Slappysan wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:17 pm
... I would not call that a duck tack, it's just an upwind carve to toeside. To be a duck tack you need to change your feet.
The term "duck" comes from windsurfing. It comes from ducking under the back of the rig as you do a transition with your back facing the tail of the board. A conventional tack has the rider passing in front of the rig with their back towards the nose of the board.

I find all the tacking instructional videos (including this one) to be somewhat useless. They all say "Do this and this and this. Then rotate and ride away." None provide any useful analysis of the rotation phase. They all follow the "miracle occurs here" school of instruction.

It's great that they tried to make a good video. It's just a little disappointing that it does not properly address the main difficulty in tacking.

The advice to not lean back is good, as far as it goes. But you see Tucker lean way back in every tack. He is centred above the board, but the mast and board are well cranked over.

This is made more confusing when many freeriding videos show riders cranked and carving hard through tacks.

There needs to be analysis of how the board is carved, how you get from carved to upright, how you get to facing the other way, where the kite is at each point in the transition, how to stop the kite pulling you off backwards, and how to deal with each failure point.

The general advice is you need to do 1000 attempts at tacking before you get it. The problem is you end up practicing falling off backwards time and time again.

I am about half way through my 1000 attempts with some entire sessions spent tacking and falling. I am finally pulling off tacks regularly (1-2 per session) but certainly not reliably.

What I think I have learned is so far (all subject to change when I finally work it out)

- the carve and the rotation seem to be separate but linked stages. Carve upwind, pause for an instant and get vertical. Do the rotation. If you carve and rotate in one movement you'll do a 360 (which is fun and much easier than tacking).

- aim for a gentle, vertical rotation. Don't dig in and try to force things around. You'll just fall off backwards and/or do a 360. Don't lean back ;-) Start with slow, vertical attempts.

- a bigger kite seems to be better at holding my weight and stopping me falling.

- push the bar out as the kite comes up to 12:00 and focus on a little back hand pressure. You want the kite to continued towards the new direction so it doesn't pull you off backwards (but not loop until you're ready, unless you're doing a 360) A little flick of the wrist to send the kite up and over your shoulder seems helpful.

This last bit is problematic. Our more tack capable local riders have the kite way behind them before they start the rotation. If I try that I fall off backwards during the transition. The riders cannot explain the process any better than I can.

Another frustrating thing is, I can do pretty much anything I want on a foil. Foot swaps. Gybes of any radius. Landing foiling jumps. Mess around with kite loops and more. All the sorts of things you would expect after hundreds of hours of foiling. Tacks are still a bit of a mystery. It seems that applies to many other people with this topic still coming up and still getting the same sorts of answers.
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Re: starting on duck tack to toeside

Postby Qiter » Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:39 am

There is another thread on the topic here with some good explanations:

viewtopic.php?f=196&t=2401387

I found it much easier than the jibing and foot switches.
Key coaching points:
- Kite at around 12, fly with back hand
- bend your knees
- lean forward
- short carve upwind
- stay centered over the board
- Turn upper body early into new direction
- Steer kite through loop

Knowing how to do a carving 360 helps enormously, as the move is basically an aborted 360.

Keep trying, practise makes perfect!

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Re: starting on duck tack to toeside

Postby Slappysan » Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:13 am

OzBungy wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:54 am
The term "duck" comes from windsurfing. It comes from ducking under the back of the rig as you do a transition with your back facing the tail of the board. A conventional tack has the rider passing in front of the rig with their back towards the nose of the board.
Sure, but you wouldn't call a "downwind carve to toeside" a "jibe to toesdie", it's just a carve. To me it's not a jibe or a tack unless you change you feet, it's just a carve.

The classic (non-foil) duck tack video




Another thing about learning duck tacks is that when you fail them you generally shoot your board way upwind and in deep water it's a mega PITA constantly body dragging back to it. I highly recommend learning to duck tack on a surfboard in waist deep water.

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Re: starting on duck tack to toeside

Postby slowboat » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:33 am

Slappysan wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:13 am
OzBungy wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:54 am
The term "duck" comes from windsurfing. It comes from ducking under the back of the rig as you do a transition with your back facing the tail of the board. A conventional tack has the rider passing in front of the rig with their back towards the nose of the board.
Sure, but you wouldn't call a "downwind carve to toeside" a "jibe to toesdie", it's just a carve. To me it's not a jibe or a tack unless you change you feet, it's just a carve.

The classic (non-foil) duck tack video




Another thing about learning duck tacks is that when you fail them you generally shoot your board way upwind and in deep water it's a mega PITA constantly body dragging back to it. I highly recommend learning to duck tack on a surfboard in waist deep water.
Regardless of the terminology, I am not interested in switching feet on this maneuver. Can we please limit comments and videos to the maneuver where the rider starts heelside and finishes toeside? As the OP, that is what I would like to learn.

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Re: starting on duck tack to toeside

Postby stevez » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:30 pm

OzBungy wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:54 am
The advice to not lean back is good, as far as it goes. But you see Tucker lean way back in every tack. He is centred above the board, but the mast and board are well cranked over.
He does lean back quite hard to initiate the tack, with the knees slightly bent, but then once the board is turning upwind he almost immediately seems to spring up a little and straighten up. So when he goes through the apex he is quite upright and lightly weighted on the foil.

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Re: starting on duck tack to toeside

Postby Qiter » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:38 pm

It is essential to be balanced and in line with the foil during the move. When going into the upwind carve lean forward a little bit, then once you face 180 degrees in the opposite direction (= the new direction) be centered over the board. As described in an earlier post from another poster, there will be a short moment of inertia before the kite pulls again).
This is usually easier achieved when you were leaning a little bit forward by going into the turn. It will also allow you to rotate your upper body earlier and easier.


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