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starting on duck tack to toeside

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DukeSilver
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Re: starting on duck tack to toeside

Postby DukeSilver » Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:34 am

Slappysan wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:03 pm
DukeSilver wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:43 pm
This is correct. Of course it's a tack or a gybe - regardless of whether you change feet or not. If you take the nose of the board through the eye of the wind and travel back in the opposite direction, you have tacked. Same for the gybe. To call it a carve if you don't swap feet is incorrect.
I think you are getting too caught up on the sailing terms of tack / jibe here. Remember they are more about switching the boom of the sail boat to the other side of the boat, something that we don't have limiting us in kitesurfing. Kitesurfing is much more free and dynamic.

It's like someone saying that a carving 360 is really called a tack-jibe. Or someone saying that downwind carving is really called multi-jibing.
If you read CGlazier's post re. the definition of a tack, it has nothing to do with a boom switching sides - just the way you change direction. A 360 is a tack followed by a gybe, but the term 360 has a snappier feel to it than a "tack/gybe". Don't forget - whether you like it of not - kiting is a form of sailing.

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Re: starting on duck tack to toeside

Postby Slappysan » Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:16 am

While kiting is very similar to sailing it's not actually sailing.

Literally kitesurfing is remotely piloting a small glider that you are tethered to and using it's lift to pull you through the water (and air).

And just because Chris pasted a short definition of "tack" doesn't make it the official definition of the sailing term. If you look it up on merriam-webster you'll find:
to change the direction of (a sailing ship) when sailing close-hauled by turning the bow to the wind and shifting the sails so as to fall off on the other side at about the same angle as before
I can assure you the most important part of tacks and jibes when on a sail boat isn't what side of the wind the bow is hitting, but which side of the boat the boom is on and the fact that it changes sides.

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Re: starting on duck tack to toeside

Postby jumptheshark » Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:49 am

Can we just call it turning around?

Most will learn to do it downwind first. Learning it upwind is super fun and unlocks massive freedom in your foiling.

For me it was all about tempo. Took a little to get all the parts in smooth enough rhythm, but eventually the timing just clicks. It's one of the best breakthroughs on the learning curve so far. As soon as it does click, don't hesitate to throw the opposite tack from toeside back to your heels. Its exactly the same tempo.

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Re: starting on duck tack to toeside

Postby DukeSilver » Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:14 am

Well you may not think it's sailing but the World Sailing Council may just disagree with your definition of what sailing is:

"KITEBOARDING IS TO BECOME A FULL OLYMPIC SAILING EVENT AFTER WORLD SAILING’S (WS) COUNCIL APPROVED A SUBMISSION THAT WILL SEE ATHLETES TAKE THE STAGE AT THE PARIS 2024 GAMES".

And of course, we now have to stop calling kiting transitions "tacks and gybes" due to a lack of a boom on our equipment.

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Re: starting on duck tack to toeside

Postby DukeSilver » Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:21 am

jumptheshark wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:49 am
Can we just call it turning around?

Haha - yes, Upwind turnaround and downwind turnaround. :D

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Re: starting on duck tack to toeside

Postby slowboat » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:42 am

Ok, can we just call it "tack to toeside"? I tried this and I find I am unable to even attempt it in one move/effort. Any suggestions on how to break it down and practice different parts of it? I have no trouble making hard carves back and forth while just riding. But how to isolate and practice bringing the kite to the other side? Thanks

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Re: starting on duck tack to toeside

Postby DukeSilver » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:33 pm

slowboat wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:42 am
Ok, can we just call it "tack to toeside"? I tried this and I find I am unable to even attempt it in one move/effort. Any suggestions on how to break it down and practice different parts of it? I have no trouble making hard carves back and forth while just riding. But how to isolate and practice bringing the kite to the other side? Thanks
Have reasonable speed going in to the move.

Slowly bring your kite up and take your front hand off the bar.

As the kite hits about 11 / 1 o'clock, push the bar out fully and carve upwind, keeping your front leg bent more than usual. I find also that shifting my rear foot further back helps me yaw the board around more aggressively.

As you approach the halfway point of the turn into the wind, start pulling down hard on your rear hand to initiate the kite loop while continuing to carve the board.

Once the kite loop begins, you should feel the pull of the kite helping you to finish off the last of the turn as well as pulling you up into a more upright position.

if you keep the board turning with heel side pressure, it will become a 360. If you want it to be a tack, you'll need to transfer your weight onto your toes (once you are back in an upright position) and redirect your board upwind.

The timing of when you initiate the kite loop is one of the critical parts of this move. Too soon and you'll be on the downwind side of your board when the loop reaches max power and you will be pulled off the board backwards. Too late, and you'll lose board speed and you will stall and come off the foil. It's a matter of trial and error and you'll start getting close and then ......Bingo.
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Re: starting on duck tack to toeside

Postby OzBungy » Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:31 am

I am just cracking the tacking conundrum. In each session I make a few, end up in 360's, do quite a few promising failures, and smack in a little.

The advice from Duke silver above is spot on. Do that.

Your goal to break it down is understandable, but unreasonable. It's a complete co-ordinated movement. You can't really break it down until you can do it, sort of.

The key for me is when I gave up practising. I committed to just slamming them out with gusto and having fun doing it.

I like to think of it as desensitisation. When you're practising everything feels weird and wrong and you end up crashing time and time again. It's all sensory overload. You try all these theories and methods and end up on your ass in the water. You get averse to trying because you're going to crash and you fear the looping kite might kill you.

By smashing them out you get comfortable in the cranked over position and comfortable looping the kite. You realise that the kite loop eliminates most of the drama of the crash and often puts you in a position when you can ride on for the next attempt.

You get the reward of a 360 with water start, and 360 on the foil, then over rotated tack. The best bit for me is feeling the foil fully loaded the whole way round the carve.

You get to the point when you can see and think about what is happening through the tack. It's no longer a smashy blur. You get time to think and feel and you approach being able to break it down and work on the elements. .... and it's fun.
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Re: starting on duck tack to toeside

Postby stevez » Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:38 am

slowboat wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:42 am
Any suggestions on how to break it down and practice different parts of it? I have no trouble making hard carves back and forth while just riding. But how to isolate and practice bringing the kite to the other side? Thanks
If you have a small trainer kite, you can shorted the learning curve quite a bit by simulating the kite flying part. You can get used to the feeling and coordination of flying the kite behind you, which is counterintuitive to begin with. You can also simulate the body position to some extent as well, and get a feeling for where the kite might be as you go around, shuffling your feet as if you were carving around. If you can do this confidently with a trainer kite, you can then move to doing the same with a normal kite in light wind, ideally standing in shallow water. This all helps to make the kite flying more familiar, as you start trying on the water.

The carve itself is an unfamiliar move, as you are not carving against the load of the kite like in a jibe. This is just practice - lots of attempts, and slowly you will get further and further around, and the timing will start coming together. DukeSilver's suggestions are really good. The most common mistake I made, and most people seem to make, is to not get the kite moving through the window far enough - the kite movement needs to be well ahead of the the board. It's all about the timing really, there is definitely a flow to it, slow to begin with, accelerating as the kite goes overhead.
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Re: starting on duck tack to toeside

Postby junebug » Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:35 pm

Unless you are extremely underpowered, it is not necessary to do a kiteloop to tack to toeside. I have found that a kiteloop is necessary for a 360, but not a tack to toeside (or, for that matter, a toeside tack to heelside). The timing is a little different without the loop because you can’t just pull the bar with your back hand but you have to time when to come out of the loop a little more critically.

When learning, I found 360s to be much easier than tacks to toeside because you can just follow the kite all the way around. My suggestion would be to learn 360s first to get the feeling of carving upwind and then learn to drop the second half of the rotation. Keep the loop if you want for the tack to toeside, but it’s not necessary unless you are totally underpowered.


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