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Learning to foil, advice on short mast and kite.

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twig
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Learning to foil, advice on short mast and kite.

Postby twig » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:23 pm

Hi

I would like to hear what kites/masts you foilers at the forum think is great for an easy progression on my foil.




Mast:
61 vs 71 cm mast (learning on the moses 590 wing) im thinking the 71 is still usable in shallow water after learning to foil and that the 61 its just a struggle to not ventilate the wings + something to sell after learning? Already got the 101cm mast to use later, and its been a bit too hard to learn on.

Kites:
Kites that Ive been looking for are the New Ozone Alpha in 8m or 6m
or Ozone Reo 8m/9m

How would the Reo and Alpha compare thinking easy handling for foiling? would the Reo be more versatile?

Fone Breeze v1 in 11m, smallest made was 11m but maybe a good deal on the used market is worth it.
I guess the Breeze is similar to Alpha?

Flysurfer Soul in 8m.
Could be the best option that deliver all I need, just a bit afraid that it is too powerful / not drifting alot while foiling.
And its a bit sensitive to sharp stuff (cut off reeds) at my not so great local beach.

or Flysurfer speed5 in 9m
I been looking to this kite alot and I guess the only thing it does better then the soul is better upwind ability (im just guessing since its higher AR) Never tried the soul, but sonicfr thats similar too speed5.
It seems that no one is promoting the speed5 since the soul came out.
Good things about speed5 would be a bombproof construction and that its cheaper to get now.

What kites would you foilers suggest?

Thanks!

tomtom
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Re: Learning to foil, advice on short mast and kite.

Postby tomtom » Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:05 pm

Please write your weight - wind speed you want to ride - and what foiling style you want to achieve.

Anyway random though in no particular order.

Reos are excelent - there are not many Alpha review so nobody really know. But should be good too - although Reos are proven as some of best Leis for foiling - which weight less than many one struts kites from other brand.

Soul - you may find that if drifts even better than LEIs but i did not like Soul handling /slow turning/ and power development /no instant depoweer/. 8 Soul is as strong as 12 LEI for sure. 8 Soul and then 7 Reo is good step. Most important 590 is quite fast wing and require speed to fly. This mean more kite power. For me big surf wing like Onda 633 was blessing and so for many others. It was much bigger difference than between kites. So would never ride on 590 vs 633.

If you want to ride in less than 10 knots LEIs will work but will not deepwater relaunch. Not even chance! Only thing that reliable relaunch in this condition are medium aspect foil kites.
I always prefer handling of LEIs though.

About mast length - 71 is shortest usable and on 590 - not so much. I think bigger wing will help you more than short mast. Short mast as permanent solution works only with big surf wing imo. 101 is for sure too long for learning.

Forget about speed 5

Myself 90 kg, 633, 91cm, 7-12knts kitech FRS 9m, then 7 north Neo till it feel too big. I have also Neo 9 - which i dont use at all. I have also FS peaks 4 in 5 and 4m which i hope will replace Neos.
I tried them on snowboard and so far i love them and have big hopes
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twig
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Re: Learning to foil, advice on short mast and kite.

Postby twig » Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:56 pm

My weight is around 80kg at the moment trying to get down to 75.
I want one kite that allow me to foil without being overpowered in 14 -16 knots and able to foil in 18 maybe 20 would be cool, then also use it in around 20 to 28 knots on a twintip. maybe this is way to much to ask from one kite. Or maybe its possible when you get skilled on a 6m?

I want to progress towards more racey gear, to use 590 -> 558 then later 647/645 (633 is a diffrent direction, of course I want it though) Now I have to learn foiling really good first and i think its good/fun to get at least one kite that is really different from my other more highaspect foilkites that I already have.

Windigo1
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Re: Learning to foil, advice on short mast and kite.

Postby Windigo1 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:02 pm

I learned with the Airush Ultra it was designed for foiling and it's fantastic. There a lot of discussions about it on this forum. I think a 12m and a 9m would be good combo for most folks. I have a 15m too but I'm heavy and I do mostly super lightwind. I learned on a 60cm mast and then moved to 90 it wasn't much harder I still use the 60 sometimes.

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Re: Learning to foil, advice on short mast and kite.

Postby tomtom » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:24 pm

At 14 - 20 you can choose whatever kite you want i mean whatever - everything will work - if racey is your thing there is absolutely no point to go for low aspect wave LEI. Only if you have other purpose for it /surfboard/ With low aspect LEI kite - kite will limit your speed.

twig
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Re: Learning to foil, advice on short mast and kite.

Postby twig » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:41 pm

I just thought it's easier to learn with a kite thats "slower". Because im really in the learning process still.
well it would be great if moses made a bigger foil wing for the kite fuselage. Too get onda is like getting a new kite.
Then I'll maybe continue with the speed4 lotus 12m and get a smaller high aspect kite.

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Re: Learning to foil, advice on short mast and kite.

Postby tomtom » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:38 pm

It will be somewhat easier to learn with big slow kite in low wind but i dont think that you will appreciate difference between f.e. 10m hi aspect lei and 10m wave lei. Big kite will always give you steady pull which will be beneficial as long as you are not overpowered. But this quite depends on your kite skill - for me big kites and foil are always scary - i was much more comfortable on small /9m/ lei than 14m LEI which my instructor insist i should use. But i think it was ME specific. I think your foil/kite for HF/ kite preference will follow your general kiting preference. So if you like to be powered you will like to powered also on foil. I was always using smallest possible kite.

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Peter_Frank
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Re: Learning to foil, advice on short mast and kite.

Postby Peter_Frank » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:49 pm

As said, forget about the 61 cm mast.

The 71 can be used for ultra marginal wind later, but if you will be into racing somewhat, it will also be useless.

For freeride and "just getting out" it is perfect for direct onshore marginal wind though :thumb:

So if you want to race even just a bit, the 61 and 71 can be used for starters, but you have to get rid of it quite fast though.

For freeride as said, take the 71 as much better for learning, and you wont outgrow it in some conditions where needed.

Kites, you dont write anything about your current kites?

Use these for starters, even if you got a 12 m2 heavy LEI, it will work fine when learning, as you got to have somewhat more wind here.

Later it is different, and dont ever use a LEI bigger than 10 m2, unless it is a one or no strut.

And with your liking for race, these dont make sense anyways, so go with a foil kite.

IF you are at a point where you change your whole kite quiver anyways, I would still go for the foil kite(s) right away, and learn to handle these.

You will learn this faster than you learn to foil :thumb:

Especially when the foil kite is smaller than 12 m2, easy peasy.

The Flysurfer speed 5 is a great kite, but somewhat "in the middle" meaning not performing for race, and too heavy for lightwind and freeride in the bigger sizes, so eventhough awesome for most kitesurfers, it is not for hydrofoil IMO.

The Soul 8 m2 would be just perfect for "most" I think.

It is quite "strong" compared to more race oriented kites, so if you think it is too fragile for your beach, I think you might have another problem regarding "what you want" now, that you have to settle first.

If I were you, I would simply start with your current kites whatever they are (doesnt matter, they all work when learning), as this is key for easy learning, and you dont ride in sub 10 knots anyways - and above 10 knots everything will work.

Alpha and Breeze in 11 m2 will both be fine now too, but why change, you have kites now right?

8) PF

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Re: Learning to foil, advice on short mast and kite.

Postby TomW » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:16 pm

My recommendation:
Learning, use any 12m kite you have in 14-16.
71cm mast.

Once you learn, since you want to head towards racing, get 101 Vorace mast and use 590 wing.
Get a used 9m Ozone R1V2. For 14-16. Smaller for over 18knots.
Learn all the transitions and flying tacks.
Then go to racing wings. Then relearn tacks.
Start racing. You night need a 13 or 15 m R1V2 for racing in lighter winds.

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Re: Learning to foil, advice on short mast and kite.

Postby grigorib » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:59 pm

- 61cm mast is way too short unless you're trying to ride quite shallow water. With 590 you'd find yourself breaching a lot on it when you edge
- 71cm mast is ok, still a bit short. I'd wait for 81cm (rumored to become available soon) and it would be both nice mast for shallow as well a nice complimentary mast to your 101cm
- at 75-80kg in 14-20 knots you should be able to ride 7-8m LEI just fine

at 200 lbs I foil with 5/7/9m Rallys and I'm happy.


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