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Kite for hydro foiling in weak winds + flight position

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Delta99
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Kite for hydro foiling in weak winds + flight position

Postby Delta99 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:11 pm

I'm reading up to understand which kite to use for hydro foil in weak winds. I get confused, some brands claim their hydro foil dedicated kite flies forward in the wind window, others say their kite flies deeper back. And both claim their flight position is the best. Strange. Since this is about aerodynamics and absolute laws of nature, one would expect all brands arrived at similar understanding and designs.

Mainly looking at single struts like the new Duotone Mono 13 sqm and F-one Breeze 13. I've never foiled, I'm 100kg/220 lbs with winds below 10 knots.

Appreciate your input.

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Re: Kite for hydro foiling in weak winds + flight position

Postby Peter_Frank » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:35 pm

Delta99 wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:11 pm
I'm reading up to understand which kite to use for hydro foil in weak winds. I get confused, some brands claim their hydro foil dedicated kite flies forward in the wind window, others say their kite flies deeper back. And both claim their flight position is the best. Strange. Since this is about aerodynamics and absolute laws of nature, one would expect all brands arrived at similar understanding and designs.

Mainly looking at single struts like the new Duotone Mono 13 sqm and F-one Breeze 13. I've never foiled, I'm 100kg/220 lbs with winds below 10 knots.

Appreciate your input.

Understand your confusion.

Short answer is: It has to fly far forward for marginal winds :D

Talking about wavekites, these are lower aspect in order to turn faster and drift better.
But there are two VERY opposite likings, and nothing but personal liking.
Some sits deep in the window, and almost takes care of themeselves why you ride the wave.
Others can accelerate and fly forward, which gives some extra advantages, IF you are capable of controlling it.

For a hydrofoil, once you get up foiling in really low wind, you will HATE a kite that sits deep, as you can not "stop" your speed anymore, but will go deeper at higher speed until a final crash maybe :roll:

Even more so in marginal winds 4-6 knots, as here you can not ride at all, if your kite havent got an extreme high L/D ratio, meaning it flies far forward in the window.
Here foil kites excel :thumb:

The thick wavekites works just dandy in the medium and smaller sizes for hydrofoiling, but you will probably not like if they sit too deep.

BUT, if you got a low aspect really big wing, we often call "surf" wings, you can ride in marginal wind with a lower AR deeper sitting kite easier.

8) PF
Last edited by Peter_Frank on Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Delta99
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Re: Kite for hydro foiling in weak winds + flight position

Postby Delta99 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:16 pm

Thanks!

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Re: Kite for hydro foiling in weak winds + flight position

Postby Foil » Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:15 am

At 100kg and a newbie in light winds you remind me of myself 21 months ago.
I tried many light wind kites at the time, but settled on the 15 MTR Fone Breeze.
also had the 11 and 13mtr, but they were underpowered for my early needs,
there was a week when I was sailing out at fuerteventura 18 months ago, using my 15mtr in very light winds where I was the only foil out for many days on my large botant Moses T60, which helped as well.
The 15 breeze was so good thatva few weeks after this It was nicked never to be seen again.
I have not got anything bigger than my 12 Reo now as I lost 10kg and gained a 633 Onda wing, along with better light wind skills my board size has also dropped to small pocket size.the only thing that has got bigger is my mast and my smile😀
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Re: Kite for hydro foiling in weak winds + flight position

Postby Delta99 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:32 pm

Thanks Foil, thanks for sharing your learnings. Interesting that you started our with the Breeze 15. Skilled foilers around Stockholm think the 15 is too large. The LE is too long and too heavy, they say. It will be too tricky to relaunch while the 13 is easier to relaunch and has enough power to get me out of the water and after that it is down to the foil to lift, not the size of the kite. I have a very large Slingshot 1550 scm and also a medium sized at 850 scm. But some kite stores I talk to support the idea of 15 sqm. And then I read about people weighing 85 kg that go light wind foiling on 9 and even on 7.

So far I learnt from the forum that forward in the window is good. But beginner size for light wind is still ambiguous.

Pls share your insights.

Tomas

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Re: Kite for hydro foiling in weak winds + flight position

Postby jumptheshark » Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:01 pm

Foiling has become a really diversified pursuit.

Those that race are on completely different gear than those that carve around on big wings with small kites. Kite, board, foil, and line length.... all different in pretty drastic ways.

I would say kites that sit forward and kites that sit deep suit different things.

In the ultra low end or "truly weak" winds, a kite that sits far forward will be harder to keep in the air, but go upwind better if you can get up and foiling.

A super light kite that sits deeper will hang in the air with less effort but are harder to get upwind on at the very bottom of the range. They also get overpowered sooner than kites that fly further forward.

In the end, It depends on your desired type of foiling. Most people who opt for the lower aspect kites and foils are content to wait for that extra knot to achieve the riding they want. In reality it's still a ridiculously low start point..... just not as low as the racers. Those guys can actually race in winds most of us can't even waterstart in.

If you are a beginner looking to learn, starting in about 12 knots where any kite can fly well is advisable.

If your already foiling and looking to max your low end, you need to figure out what type of foiling you enjoy or aspire to and choose your gear appropriately. The low end will be exceptional either way.
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Re: Kite for hydro foiling in weak winds + flight position

Postby Foil » Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:38 pm

Delta99 wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:32 pm
Thanks Foil, thanks for sharing your learnings. Interesting that you started our with the Breeze 15. Skilled foilers around Stockholm think the 15 is too large. The LE is too long and too heavy, they say. It will be too tricky to relaunch while the 13 is easier to relaunch and has enough power to get me out of the water and after that it is down to the foil to lift, not the size of the kite. I have a very large Slingshot 1550 scm and also a medium sized at 850 scm. But some kite stores I talk to support the idea of 15 sqm. And then I read about people weighing 85 kg that go light wind foiling on 9 and even on 7.

So far I learnt from the forum that forward in the window is good. But beginner size for light wind is still ambiguous.

Pls share your insights.

Tomas
For starting off as a newbie at your weight and in the light winds you have, then I would definitely say go for a kite like the breeze 15mtr, the 15 breeze water relaunches very easily in light winds,
combined with a floaty stable board this will give you a recipe for smooth rise out of the water without working the kite too much, then a nice float along the surface and then a smooth rise up followed by numerous returns back down to the water surface, these want to be without drama,with a easy to control large kite with lots of lift, which sit far enough forward to minimise out of control speed runs downwind.
In time you will outgrow the easy to use stuff, and skill will allow you to get much smaller kites to work better than the 15mtr, and a smaller board will deliver a more fun feeling, however going to small or minimal volume may well hold you back when learning turns as its then that touchdowns are punished heavily if your board is under size, low nosed, low volume or even worse all 3.
Wing and mast choice are important, I tried the lot and would recommend a 70cm mast to start, this you will again grow out off, but its long enough to keep if you encounter shallow water at your locations.
as for the wing then a slow big wing helps a lot, not the famous Moses 633 straight off,as this has rapid hard lift and is not that slow, in fact its very fast if pointed off downwind with little skill to slow it down, the hoverglide is a great wing to start off on, but you will outgrow it very quickly, but its mega easy to sell and very difficult to damage
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Re: Kite for hydro foiling in weak winds + flight position

Postby jumptheshark » Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:49 pm

That sounds like really solid advice
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Re: Kite for hydro foiling in weak winds + flight position

Postby lovethepirk » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:25 am

Peter_Frank wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:35 pm
Delta99 wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:11 pm
I'm reading up to understand which kite to use for hydro foil in weak winds. I get confused, some brands claim their hydro foil dedicated kite flies forward in the wind window, others say their kite flies deeper back. And both claim their flight position is the best. Strange. Since this is about aerodynamics and absolute laws of nature, one would expect all brands arrived at similar understanding and designs.

Mainly looking at single struts like the new Duotone Mono 13 sqm and F-one Breeze 13. I've never foiled, I'm 100kg/220 lbs with winds below 10 knots.

Appreciate your input.

Understand your confusion.

Short answer is: It has to fly far forward for marginal winds :D

Peter,

I have been on a quest to find a great lightwind setup and I respectfully disagree with this statement. Here's why in my opinion. In 10 knots/11mph no one is happy, but give me even a 12m and I 'may' be able to get going on my 535sq cm front wing. Drop that down to 7-9 knots(little if no white caps visable)...I have to have my 15m. The MOST important thing at these winds imho is the waterstart(not to mention keeping the kite in the air) which is the grunt you need to get to speed. At most you will be able to get to 22knots on a race hydrofoil so you don't really need to dump the power by having a forward flying kite. You need a kite that sits somewhat deep so you can utilize that characteristic when spending those precious moments getting up to speed after the initial pull out of the water. The problem I had with large kites that fly too far forward is you can get them in the power zone by looping and whatnot, but they stall to some degree and don't want to haul ass OUT of the powerzone to give you that pull when you need it.

I just got a 2017 15m Slingshot Turbine from Mackite and I put 27m lines on it and I am in absolute fucking heaven. This bitch gets me going in just the hint of whitecaps, even on my small wing. I can haul ass on that race wing and I don't have any issue in those light winds once up to speed. The 27m lines help give you that extra second of diving the kite towards the water to enjoy that power for just enough more time as well as the longer lines help sit that kite deeper in the window. I think the Turbine may have a weird theory that it is a very forward flying kite, I'll disagree b/c the leading edge is as large as I have ever seen. Even larger than my 17m Contra. I kited the other day in semi offshore winds at 9 knots and the thing honest to god would not hindenburg, she slowly fell and once a little gust hit she recovered. I have not dropped her in over 10 sessions so far all in very light wind. Big fan of that kite after sending the Switch Helium back which doesn't even compare to this kite. I actually thing the Helium sits more forward b/c it's leading edge is so small. That thing fell out of the sky whenever it wanted to.

In my opinion in very very light wind the best setup is 27m lines on a 15m inflatable that is in between a wave kite and a kite like the ozone edge.

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Re: Kite for hydro foiling in weak winds + flight position

Postby grigorib » Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:09 am

High aspect kites (Turbine) sit close to edge of the wind window. They go upwind great, generate almost unmanageable looping power, relaunch less easy. I loop my kite a lot in lightwind starts so it might not be best choice.
Lower aspect kite would loop more friendly and might relaunch better.

In my experience 14+ meter wings are not the best foiling fun and I avoid foiling with anything bigger than 9m
Use long lines 30-35m to get extra kick out of kite and 11-12m should be sufficient size riding a large 1100-1300 sq.cm foil wing


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