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Kite for hydro foiling in weak winds + flight position

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Peter_Frank
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Re: Kite for hydro foiling in weak winds + flight position

Postby Peter_Frank » Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:16 am

lovethepirk, I still hold on to my statements not in doubt.

Here is why you might have a different view:

7-9 knots is not weak/marginal wind, at 7 knots I can ride with medium AR tubekites 12 m2 (I can at 78 kg) with a bigger wing, preferably a bit higher AR than the surf wings, but these will work also.
At 9 knots I could just get away with a 9-10 m2 kite no problem (long lines of course).

It is when you go lower, the really forward flying foil kites are the only ones that can work IMO.

Yes, as you write, they can stall easier and require a really good pilot.
Even the very best racers struggle somewhat with the latest high AR faster flying (thin profile) racekites, as they are soooo sensitive.

BUT, when you can master this, they go beyond what one would think possible!

Apparent wind is what it is all about when you go below 6 knots, and here the angle get pinched so much, that you need high AR forward flying kites, in order to ride, impossible otherwise IMO.
The amazing part is, that they can go at incredible speeds, but this is ONLY due to the higher AR wings and kites.
This speed gives you apparent wind and as the pull is squared with the speed, it means a lot - but still bear in mind it is not as effective because of the pinching effect.

One can also say, that as long as you dont have issues with being too powered, the lower AR kites are A LOT easier to fly, which is why many think they are better.

And maybe they are, for the individual, true.
But IMO it is lousy technique :wink:

Just like someone riding a high AR foil kite for the very first time in light wind, what happens?

Kite is dived and pulls like a maniac, you get a fresh aggressive waterstart :D

Now kite is low, in low winds, you are not foiling yet, and it loses ALL power, so you fall backwards ha haa - that is what happens with each and everyone I have seen (including myself many years ago) :naughty:

With the right technique though, these kites are unbeatable in terms of lowend in my experience - and that was the question indirectly I assume, and as high AR foil kites fly the furthest forward in the window, and high AR tube kites flat profile quite far forward, high AR tube thick profile a bit lower, low AR tube flat profile even lower usually, and low AR thick profile the lowest, it is somewhat also in this order the lowest weak/marginal wind limit is.

BUT, bear in mind, the most forward flying kites require a better rider/pilot indeed, and the deeper they fly in the window, the easier they are (as long as we dont talk about too much power)

Personally as a "non racer" I prefer LEI kites as soon as possible so from 7 knots and up.
This is because they can turn so much faster, and having fun and playing is what I like, and being easy is great, and that they float in the water, a huge practical benefit when they go down or wind drops.
But in 4-6 knots they simply can not do it anymore, not sufficient apparent wind nor peak power and sits too deep so pinched too much, and I use a high AR foil kite or race foil kite, even with the risk of swimming :roll:

8) PF

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Re: Kite for hydro foiling in weak winds + flight position

Postby Regis-de-giens » Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:45 am

Peter,
Just focussing on the extreme lower end with a foilkite (say 6 to 4 knots depending on rider reference): in term of ability to foil upwind and freeride, i do not agree with your analysis of the AR as high possible (At least for medium/light riders), even in expert hands. Indeed i agree with Lovethepirk : the limiting factor becomes the "get out of beach" (in onshore winds at least) and waterstart/foiling phase where a medium ratio foilkite is better for its stability and grunt power in the waterstarts loops. Have you ever tried a light mid AR kite in marginal winds ? I tried both and to me the result is clear ... ; and additionally it is asier to achieve for non expert (but also experts).

Most foilkites (even mid ratio) have a better forward window vs all LEI (even mid ratio foil kites) ; it is enough to stay upwind and since you also need a large wing that does not reach a high speed, and long lines, you do not really suffer from the kite a bit deeper in window and that you can better apply recovering loops in lulls in deep water.

I would give another advantage to medium ratios : in light wind you can still attempt tricks and pursue your progression because you get a better margin for errors, with far less chance to send the kite in the water and far more chance to relaunch. Hence even if i get less speed (but not so much...) , i get more fun in light (say below 7 knots) with my medium ratio vs the higher ratio i tried or own.

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Re: Kite for hydro foiling in weak winds + flight position

Postby Peter_Frank » Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:11 am

True Regis, it is not as simple, as if we have to take practical issues into play also, like if it is too difficult, or we dont got the skill, then indeed there is a limit where it crosses.

But the peak power is what it is all about if you are a sufficiently good pilot IMO.

Particularly in onshore winds, where you HAVE to get up in one or two loops, and no time to fiddle standing on the board trying to get up foiling while you hit the ground with your foil :x
Also, you get a higher angle to the wind, so you got a chance to get "free" easier, if you are up, not always possible if too low AR.

You are quite light, so when you say 7 knots, it corresponds to around 8 knots for the average weight, quite important.

As I think I wrote quite clear, the high AR kites requires a much better pilot, so not the choice for many riders in marginal winds no, and I also try to avoid them for this very reason, apart from the peak and angle, only downsides when not racing.

Still think they outperform the medium ones in terms of max lowend, WHEN the rider knows how to, because of their peak power.
Grunt is IMO useless, if it is just even a tad too litle to waterstart and get up foiling - whereas if you have a peak where you can, eventhough not present all the time, you are on a roll :naughty:

I use a medium aspect 15 m2 Concept Air Pulsion (27 g all over) now, got it last autumn, and it is an awesome kite and can hang in "nothing", like really close to nothing.
The peak power is a tad less than some higher AR kites it feels, so it seems when I meet the low end, where I can not get up anymore (the kite still hangs fine), a higher AR kite could have given the push needed, eventhough it would be a PITA to handle and ride and turn, yes.
Will know more when spring/summer comes :D

Love this kite, it is amazing!

Here with +30 meter only 0,8 mm thick lines and as you can see on the flags/pennants in the rear on both sides of the blue leader, almost NO wind (and it not raining/wet so they dont stick), but can keep it flying:

Image

8) PF

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Re: Kite for hydro foiling in weak winds + flight position

Postby Regis-de-giens » Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:17 pm

I did not know you had a pulsion now. In same 27gr as me so we can share the same reference (also 0.8 mm lines).
I agree with you that peak power is important but i would just slightly balance with peak duration. Because getting on the board and get the foiling speed is not instantaneous.

I suppose you do not oppose the rider skills in my case. We have hydrofoil european champions here, far better skilled than us certainly, and I seem to ride a bit earlier with my med ratio vs them with r1v2 or FS vmg 21's (At least when i.was on the spot).

No pretension here, just to exchange, and indeed rider weight changes the reference like you said from 7 to 8 knots for 80 kg rider. My point is just that when the pulsion is at his flight limit (meaning hangs in the air with minimum little S move to keep it in the sky, I can ride. From my test (of sonic2 or Elf j5 which is lighter), i would never get on the bord with the lower power of the loop of a race kite (or it would require too long lines > 40 m that would kill its ld ratio, peak power and loose of its fun and speed).

Knowing your style of ride and your like of LEI when possible, I am really surprised you prefer a racekite in lower end. Which kite model , size and brand ?

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Re: Kite for hydro foiling in weak winds + flight position

Postby Peter_Frank » Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:10 pm

I dont prefer a racekite, on the contrary I dislike these for my style (or lack of style, dont know...), but have found that their peak power is crazy and can give more than all other kites.

Racers tend to use around 15 m lines mostly, sometimes a tad longer, but I have never seen anyone using 30 m or more like I do with these, so not easy to compare how low the racers can go.

They most often got faster wings too, that require more power.

Because they dont need really big wings nor long lines for racing, they dont wanna ride with these long lines, understandingly, because it would most likely harm their overall fitness/practice level (I need a word for this?), so they dont chase the ultimate lower end, eventhough they are often about the same as "ours", with their normal lines and racegear, for average weights it seems.

Also, these racekites can not be as light as possible, as they wont hold more than one race then, ridden hysterically overpowered (in our eyes) and with max load, so they can not be as light as possible, eventhough quite close sometimes.
So you can not really buy a superlight racekite that is only strong enough for freeride but can not hold for a race, can you?

Using longer lines on racekites you can tweak the low end hugely further down, no doubt at all, have tried that with different years 15 and 13 m2 racekites like the Jokers, and the new "difficult to ride" Diablo V4, some are too heavy to be useful in marginal winds, but the peak power is crazy and really long lasting on long lines so IF I can keep the kite flying for starters, say looping it both ways while dragging out if wind a bit from the side which it often is, I can ride, even with an 11 m2, in almost nothing.
But hopeless in terms of handling and hanging easy.

Maybe there is a difference regarding rider weight if light or medium or heavy? Dont know :-?

Because I dont like racekites in the way they handle and turn, and because they are often not as light, I have chosen the 15 m2 ultralight medium AR foil kite with a lifting profile, which IMO is almost as good in terms of best low end, by FAR the best in terms of "hanging", so easy, and turns and handles way better than everything else that flies quite forward in the window.
Meaning the "practically" best low end will occur way more often with a kite like this, eventhough some faster kites would occasionally beat them, but what does that help if you can not keep it in the air for starters?

So for freeride I find this must be the best choice, a foilkite that flies quite far forward, not as much as racekites, but turn much better and hang and handle better.

But this is just my personal choice, not because I think it is better for ultimate low end, but because I think it gives the most days where you can reach and enjoy the low end.
I might change view later of course, but still think it is like that.

8) Peter

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Re: Kite for hydro foiling in weak winds + flight position

Postby TomW » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:30 pm

I was out Saturday in light wind. The computers and observation was saying that it was 5ms. There were no white caps at all. Another guy was on speed 21 and me on a Sonic 2 13m, 20 m lines , 80 kg+ 6/5 wetsuit , Moses 633 on 105cm board.
In the beginning I had to get timing just right to get out of water. Then it was a little more wind to be perfect ( still no White caps) . The guy on the 21 said he was a bit over powered.
I'm learning more on how to fly this kite and I can turn it faster now. There's a technique to it.
I've been on here researching for a better one, but it's really difficult to decide to change..

Foil kites are really good for light wind. I bought a used one for 1000€ and made it worth it. I use my 9m Hyperlink 85% , Sonic2 13m 10% , Hyperlink 7 m 5%.
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Re: Kite for hydro foiling in weak winds + flight position

Postby TomW » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:36 pm

Peter,
I'd like to hear more about your experience with the CA Pulsion 15.
Regis says it would be good replacement for my Sonic 2 13m.
I just want to freeride . Need to complement my Hyperlink 9, which works from 5+ M/s. So looking for 4-7ms range Sonic 2 13 works in that range. Not riding in under 4ms...

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Re: Kite for hydro foiling in weak winds + flight position

Postby Regis-de-giens » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:18 pm

So i think peter and me are in line on the real world of marginal wind at least on onshore wind. Then on final low end with side shore winds we are not in line : from my experience with Elf 11m and sonic2 15m I could not waterstart in the same low wind as Pulsion with similar and reasonnable line lenght (and my special light weight).
TomW wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:36 pm
Peter,
I'd like to hear more about your experience with the CA Pulsion 15.
Regis says it would be good replacement for my Sonic 2 13m.
Just for clarification I try to avoid saying "good replacement" or "not good" because it is a matter of preferences and ride style. I however (strongly) think that you will get a better "real life" low end with the pulsion 15m and even 12m (and also easier To achieve with overall medium light wind skills) ; indeed ultimate low end are quite close (for less than 70kg), thanks to even better loop of a smaller size while pu15m will deliver more power under about 7-8 knots (appreciated in my light wind application) .

Yes also very interesting to hear Peter feedback.

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Re: Kite for hydro foiling in weak winds + flight position

Postby lovethepirk » Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:33 am

grigorib wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:09 am
High aspect kites (Turbine) sit close to edge of the wind window.
I'm in love with my 15m Turbine, but I don't think it is high aspect at all. I believe this is marketing by the companies. I can do a side by side comparison one day against my 17 Contra if you want..... I do know my 15m Turbine is as fat as my 17 contra and the leading edge is about as large, maybe marginally smaller. With a fat leading edge and a long chord the kite by design should sit deeper in the window...the only way around this is to design the kite with less angle of attack, but that works itself out in how you trim your bar if you know what you are doing..... The Turbine does have more swept wings(which is inefficient) and a longer fatter center projected area, which is why so many people think it is so powerful for it's size. In my humble option without doing proper measurements it is not a high aspect kite but it is a bad ass kite and I am loving it. I have a 16m NRG and that girl is high aspect and will stall like a biitch if I try her out in 10 knots on the foil. That kite has a much longer tip to tip projection and much smaller center chord. She acts similar to my foil kite.

The most important thing in foiling in 7-9 knots is the water start. You need two stages....you need to get pulled somewhat upright and generate some type of board speed(even if that is just a few mph) and then you need a second pull to complete the water start. In 7-9 knots I can't imagine a high aspect kite beating a medium aspect kite in this regard. The design attributes just contradict each other too much. I've swam in too many times with my high aspect kites in 8 knots. I'm happy with the 15m Turbine. Once up to speed, yea, I'd like a higher aspect kite, but when I try to transition a mile out I want to know that kite is gonna be deeper in the window. Although I will say those foil kites just stay in the air no matter what and relaunch quite easily in sick low winds compared to LEI. It kinda didn't matter to me one day thou b/c I got caught a half mile out with a foil kite that would relaunch but I couldn't get going lol.
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Re: Kite for hydro foiling in weak winds + flight position

Postby grigorib » Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:45 am

I meant smaller Turbine, comparing 9m Turbine to 9m Rally. The Turbine is highter aspect laid over the Rally. I’d much rather foil with lower aspect kite because it stalls less in LW and loops in more controlled manner.

I didn’t enjoy foiling with 15m Turbine and 14m Rally. Doable but in toeside kite tends to get closer to water and I just stopped foiling with large kites. It rather put my 9m on 30m lines and have more fun, it’s easier to start with and more fun whipping it around.
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