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is carbon much better?

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revhed
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Re: is carbon much better?

Postby revhed » Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:46 am

Yes
R H

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Re: is carbon much better?

Postby stevez » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:45 am

Carbon is better no question, but alloy has it's advantages.
The uplift is less than you get e.g. moving from an alloy to carbon bike.
Unless you're racing or jumping, you don't really feel the weight of the foil on the water.
Most of the weight benefit is handling the foil on the beach, while starting etc.
Alloy / G10 is robust - carbon is fragile - keep your alloy foil spare so when your carbon foil is in for repairs, you're still on the water.
Also great to have something you don't mind risking when you're at an unfamiliar spot and you're not sure exactly what's underneath.

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Re: is carbon much better?

Postby Foil » Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:22 pm

there is one occasion where carbon is so much better to have under your arm.
when your facing horrible mushy fast shore break in onshore winds.
most of us have been there.
That big breaking wave you can't get over that just gets a grip on your kit and lifts it over you, so that you are trying desperately to keep the whole lot from coming down of top of your head whilst being still aware your lines have gone slack and your kite might be about to fall with the resulting fight with the foil board to keep it clear of the next wave and your delicate bits, knowing your kite might just power back up about to cause all sorts of mayhem.
now with a super light full carbon foil set and carbon foil board you may have a chance to wressle it into submission, but the weight of some other kit which may be twice the weight or more then its harder to win, and the heavy kit can cut deeper, and hurt so much more, try kicking the wings under the water, carbon is bad enough but heavy kit hurts a lot more.

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Re: is carbon much better?

Postby Flyboy » Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:53 pm

Huib wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:18 am
I have an Alpine with an alloy mast. Last year I changed several times on the water with a friend who has exactly the same setup but with a carbon mast.
The difference with foiling was not or hardly noticeable for me.
I have heard this kind of opinion ... and this kind of opinion:
bigcane wrote: I think what is missing from this conversation is the main point about carbon which is the stiffness of the mast. Once you have a bit of experience and then get to ride an UHM carbon low drag mast there is no going back.
I'm not sure how an alloy mast is less stiff than a carbon mast? Does this have more to do with the way the components mesh together than the actually stiffness of the mast? In any case, does lack of stiffness significantly detract from the foiling experience for the average user, especially in slower speed, carving oriented foiling? I can see that in racing, performance is likely to be effected by stiffness and hydro dynamic efficiency, but most people are not using foils for racing.

With regard to bikes: I have a relatively high end carbon road bike. I bought it used, for the same price as a new, fairly low end aluminum bike. It is comfortable to ride, light weight & allows me to ride perhaps 10% faster than an aluminum bike. This is entirely meaningless in the scheme of things ... as I am not racing. However, I enjoy owning & riding the bike, it encourages me to push harder when I am riding ... & I didn't spend a lot of money for it.
Foil wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:22 pm
there is one occasion where carbon is so much better to have under your arm.
when your facing horrible mushy fast shore break in onshore winds.
most of us have been there.
That big breaking wave you can't get over that just gets a grip on your kit and lifts it over you, so that you are trying desperately to keep the whole lot from coming down of top of your head whilst being still aware your lines have gone slack and your kite might be about to fall with the resulting fight with the foil board to keep it clear of the next wave and your delicate bits, knowing your kite might just power back up about to cause all sorts of mayhem.
now with a super light full carbon foil set and carbon foil board you may have a chance to wressle it into submission, but the weight of some other kit which may be twice the weight or more then its harder to win, and the heavy kit can cut deeper, and hurt so much more, try kicking the wings under the water, carbon is bad enough but heavy kit hurts a lot more.
Yes - this I get. My first experiences trying to foil were in onshore winds & at a shallow, wavy, sand- bar infested launch with a big, heavy board & alloy foil. I expended a lot of energy swimming the board into deeper water & then completely failed to maneuver the board & foil into position to water start. It was exhausting & demoralizing. :cry:

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Re: is carbon much better?

Postby evan » Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:12 am

Weight discussion aside, in my opinion the biggest difference is Stiffness vs profile thickness.

On thick slow foils carbon doesn't have much advantages as you can achieve good Stiffness and weight from glass or aluminum at the cost of some drag from the thicker profiles.
If you look into weight vs strength a glass composite can be better than carbon, it is the Stiffness where carbon shines.
And it is the Stiffness that allows for really thin high AR wings and long masts to have the foils with the least amount of drag and best performance.

If high performance gear is better depends on your riding style, the same way a draggy drifting wave kite can be better for your style than a race kite. But if you want to ride in the lowest possible winds or the highest speeds there are no alternatives to high performance gear.

Rule of thumb: for low drag and high Stiffness you need carbon, for the majority a bit extra drag is worth the lower price point of aluminum foils.
But most important: it needs to be a well designed, stable and balanced foil. Even the most expensive one is worthless if it is too hard to ride.

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Re: is carbon much better?

Postby NYKiter » Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:14 pm

The original thread suffers from a question that is too simplistic...

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Re: is carbon much better?

Postby slowboat » Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:08 pm

So done with this topic. Wish it would go away


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