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Moses 683 Freeride at speed

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grigorib
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Re: Moses 683 Freeride at speed

Postby grigorib » Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:26 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:46 pm
grigorib wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:59 pm
Snip...

Not only confusing but sound ineffective. Imagine if airplane stabilizer was pointed down as well as prop engine in front "to create force onto main wing and stabilize the craft". Why not go further and attach a parachute behind to "keep it horizontal"

Snip...

I dont understand your point here?

But regarding above, it IS how small airplanes are usually designed and trimmed.

The stabilizer pulls a bit down, CG a bit forward, so it has auto stabilizing effect when gliding if the motor is either shut off, run dry of gazoline, or just running at idle throttle.

And the motor (propeller) is pointed somewhat down, so the plane will still fly straight, when you increase the motor throttle.

This is very normal and used often for a pleasant easy flight with all throttle levels :thumb:

8) Peter
I didn't know that. Interesting.

So when I push 590 go fast it takes nice manageable amount of front foot pressure. When I slow down for a turn and take it vertical it feels that I almost need to move front foot a bit back - that much less pressure it needs. My assumption was it's caused by stabilizer pointing down and downward lift increasing at speed takes more front foot pressure too. Am I right? Are race foils tuned the same way?

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Peter_Frank
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Re: Moses 683 Freeride at speed

Postby Peter_Frank » Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:43 pm

You are very right grigorib, and especially fast hydrofoils are often tuned so the stab dont pull as much down, and got a much better neutral trim at different speeds.

I like that myself too for freeride, hate if I have to change weight distribution too much.

My point though, was only that the motor aircraft analogy can not be used, as this IS exactly how they are designed normally, on cost of a bit more drag yes.
Can not be compared to hydrofoiling in this respect.

8) Peter

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Re: Moses 683 Freeride at speed

Postby Wazza KiteFoil » Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:53 am

My simplified view:
I do not know what tuning is on any foil when new ie if it is +/- aoa at the rear wing or neutral.
So I change nothing for the first few sessions.
Then if required make incremental aoa adjustments to suit my foiling conditions and me.
Now for my 683s this is the fiber washer at the back bolt as the thicker ss washer seemed too much.
I can not tell if aoa is now neutral or +/- but this tuning works for me.
Benefits for me less tiring on my legs, comfortable at 30kph and more fun.
So can only conclude for me less drag as well
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Foil
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Re: Moses 683 Freeride at speed

Postby Foil » Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:22 am

Wazza KiteFoil wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:53 am
snip
I do not know what tuning is on any foil when new ie if it is +/- aoa at the rear wing or neutral.
So I change nothing for the first few sessions.
snip
I can not tell if aoa is now neutral or +/-
I have a small rig in my garage for measuring the aoa on any wing set, so will measure it and post up tomorrow.
today its the 683s test for me.
:thumb:

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Re: Moses 683 Freeride at speed

Postby NYKiter » Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:47 pm

Curious to hear others riding experience with this AO please post after your sesh...

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Re: Moses 683 Freeride at speed

Postby Foil » Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:53 pm

Image
Image

So today was much better than forecast,
Wind got up to 22 mph, sunny and decent swell to play on, although this held back the speed a bit.
3 hours on the 683s and 40 minutes on the 633 for comparison.
I have used the 633 for the last 13 months, and spent many hours getting the best from it, 3 to 4 days a week on average, in all conditions on open sea, I have nothing negative to say about the 633, I am on my 3rd wing, my first one was the heavy sup edition, my two newer 633 wings are the lighter versions,

I decided to go out straight out on the 683s with a 10 MTR to test the lift from the off in early light wind, the lift was instant, smooth punchy lift, straight up and away, within 10 minutes the wind got up, so it was back to shore for my 8mtr , the swell was up and conditions were awesome, smooth wave faces with glossy flat sections out deep,with larger faces close in with white water, spacing was perfect guessing around 12 to 15 seconds,
The superior speed of the 683s is immediately noticeable, made even better by the fact the wings stayed more level with a lot less pogo stick feeling over the swell, giving me confidence to push on, turns were - well not much different than the 633, but I have used the 633 for so long I have learnt how to get the best from it and find it very fast to carve anyways, so for me the turns are much the same, apart from the 683s will remind you it is wider when you try to really crank it hard and fast at the bottom of a wave, a few times the wing tip popped out and gave me warning to cool it,
But then after my first turn to toeside I was in disbelief at the difference to the 633,
Firstly the speed upwind was far superior, the angle felt higher, the control I had attacking the swell was on a different level that blew me away, then bearing away on toeside over the fast swells was so fast and controllable that I was driven to swear and giggle through the experience, it was incredible.
I just had to keep repeating the experience, even going close to shore In the white water, the 683s rode through the white foam without dropping me to the surface which the 633 will do just as well, but no better.
As for outright speed the conditions prevented me from pushing to the max,
But the GPS showed a top speed over the waves of 39 kmph against 32kmph, in the 683s favour,
I have had the 633 up to 40kmph in flatter conditions, so there is much faster speed to realise on the 683s when the conditions are met for outright speed,

When I jumped on the 633 for a direct comparison there was one small difference I had missed,not a fault, but feature, that became apparent using the 633, something I have never noticed before until today,
the 633 sort of shimmers ever so slightly when going upwind on toeside, I have never noticed this before, well not until today, the 683s just remains solid, mostly level and silky smooth.
So in summary
Imho
The 683s is a more refined 633.
All the best bits.
With smoother/more stable, more accessible speed,
A startling extra speed and stabilty bonus when blasting upwind on toeside, or at speed downwind over decent swell and waves.
Mast position exactly the same for both wings,
Hardly any difference in kite size required, but if pushed to confirm then maybe half a meter more required, which will suit me when the wind is really honking when without doubt the 683s will be my wing of choice,
I fell in about a dozen times whilst using the 683s over near 3 hours, and only once did the board sit on its side, but even then it rolled over before I got to it, I was using my 101 masts.
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Re: Moses 683 Freeride at speed

Postby NYKiter » Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:28 pm

:jump: :jump: :bye: :bye: :bye: :thumb: :thumb: :cool2:

Wazza KiteFoil
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Re: Moses 683 Freeride at speed

Postby Wazza KiteFoil » Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:02 am

Update on ss washer versus thinner fibre washer.
Fiber washer wins easy.
Had my best session todate on my 683 and in fact better than any foil I have experienced which are many.

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Re: Moses 683 Freeride at speed

Postby BraCuru » Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:09 pm

Foil wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:53 pm
But the GPS showed a top speed over the waves of 39 kmph against 32kmph, in the 683s favour,
I have had the 633 up to 40kmph in flatter conditions, so there is much faster speed to realise on the 683s when the conditions are met for outright speed,
Your goal remains unchanged ;)
50
Do you believe know?
Just flat water, 10+kts wind and well powered kite.
I was in shock seeing that I don't lose too much to some guys flying Comets.
Imho
The 683s is a more refined 633.
All the best bits.
With smoother/more stable, more accessible speed,
Fully agree. I prefer 683 over 633 for kiting.
Good report btw. :thumb:

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Re: Moses 683 Freeride at speed

Postby Foil » Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:34 pm

As promised here is the Angle of Attack for the rear wing 483,
The setting is taken with the angle gauge set on zero when attached to the 683s front wing.
Result shows. 0•9 degrees down, very much like other wings I have measured.
I have no need at all to change this angle, it works perfectly for me weighing in at 90kg :coffee:
front foot straps set forward, rear foot placed against the rear strap but never in,
I move my rear foot forward a bit when either going for speed or dropping down waves or swell, in fact I do move my back foot around quite a bit to micro correct the trim for different situations.
BarCuru
50kmph is my goal on this wing, I do believe it's possible, but may take me a week or two :thumb:
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