Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

Who are the foilers?

A forum dedicated to Hydrofoil riders
User avatar
jumptheshark
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1037
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:36 pm
Local Beach: Shhhhh
Favorite Beaches: Nude
Gear: The good stuff
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 117 times
Been thanked: 232 times

Re: Who are the foilers?

Postby jumptheshark » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:29 am

Peter_Frank wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:50 pm
I still dont get this Bob, USA is still only one out of 195 countries, with a very different way than many others, so location and culture is everything IMO, and one can not broadscast a single country worldwide as being "how it is" :roll:

8) PF
I guess that all depends on the size of the country....( I don't live in the US )

I do think the post was generalizing about global numbers.

Personally cant remember the last time I actually saw a wakeboarder with my own eyes, and the only foils I have ever seen have been kite and moth. Doesn't blind me to the relative size of the various markets.


Bob and XL kites state they are privy to global industry data.

windmaker
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1656
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2003 8:48 am
Local Beach: .
Style: Strapless surf and foil
Gear: F-One & Aeros kites/ HB surf/ Taaroa foil/ Manera
Has thanked: 15 times
Been thanked: 30 times
Contact:

Re: Who are the foilers?

Postby windmaker » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:18 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:50 pm
I still dont get this Bob, USA is still only one out of 195 countries, with a very different way than many others, so location and culture is everything IMO, and one can not broadscast a single country worldwide as being "how it is" :roll:

8) PF
Agreed, perhaps wakeboarding is very big in the Us but Us is not the world. As a kite dealer I have insiders info of the foiling market in the EU and kitefoils are by far outselling all other form of foiling here.

grigorib
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2212
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:12 pm
Kiting since: 2009
Local Beach: OBX; Clinton Lake, IL; Lake Michigan; La Ventana, SPI; Tawas, MI
Gear: Kites: Slingshot Rally 5/7/9/11m, SST 5m, Turbine 9m, Flysurfer Speed4 10m standard, Peter Lynn Venom II ARC 16m

Boards: Spleene RIP 37, Flysurfer Radical6 138, Flysurfer Flydoor5 XL, Slingshot/Moses 80/82/91/105cm masts with 590/330 695/425 683s/450 679/483 wingsets, Tim's 36" woody, Slingshot Dwarfcraft Micro 3'6" 2019-2020, MBS Comp 95x

For sale: Slingshot SST 6m 2018 $480, Slingshot Turbine 5m 2017 like new $450, BROkite carbon board 140x44cm like new complete $650, Slingshot Rally 6m 2017 like new $530

Moses 590/647/330 $740, Moses 633/749/483 $790, Moses 683s/749/483 $890, 75cm alu mast $200, 80cm alu mast $260
.
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 139 times
Been thanked: 185 times

Re: Who are the foilers?

Postby grigorib » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:53 pm

So do windsurf foil and surf/SUP foil markets pay off on investments into specific molds and design?
Do they benefit in means of knowledge/R&D/revenue or they're rather a burden?

Are they going to make it as a separate line or they'll be using kite/wake foil material?

windmaker
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1656
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2003 8:48 am
Local Beach: .
Style: Strapless surf and foil
Gear: F-One & Aeros kites/ HB surf/ Taaroa foil/ Manera
Has thanked: 15 times
Been thanked: 30 times
Contact:

Re: Who are the foilers?

Postby windmaker » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:30 am

grigorib wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:53 pm
So do windsurf foil and surf/SUP foil markets pay off on investments into specific molds and design?
Do they benefit in means of knowledge/R&D/revenue or they're rather a burden?

Are they going to make it as a separate line or they'll be using kite/wake foil material?
As originally with kite foiling some manufacturers are willing to take the risk with wind and surf foils either because they are passionate or truly believe in them.

And as with kitefoil the rest will not actually develop or make there own wind/surf foils but have them made by someone else and then label them as there latest design which took years to develop :D

User avatar
Cab Driver
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 514
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 7:12 pm
Brand Affiliation: Cabrinha
Location: Distributor/Cabrinha/Miami
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 23 times

Re: Who are the foilers?

Postby Cab Driver » Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:31 pm

windmaker wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:30 am
grigorib wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:53 pm
So do windsurf foil and surf/SUP foil markets pay off on investments into specific molds and design?
Do they benefit in means of knowledge/R&D/revenue or they're rather a burden?

Are they going to make it as a separate line or they'll be using kite/wake foil material?
As originally with kite foiling some manufacturers are willing to take the risk with wind and surf foils either because they are passionate or truly believe in them.

And as with kitefoil the rest will not actually develop or make there own wind/surf foils but have them made by someone else and then label them as there latest design which took years to develop :D
Consider that a good wing will produce the max lift, lowest drag, highest stability, and optimum speed. Certainly these traits can be extremely similar across different "sports". Really, foiling is the sport and kite, windsurf, sail, wave, boat, and elec. motor are what power it, so it makes sense that the wing technology is shared across sports and works quite well. In some cases, for example windsurfing, they aren't using the 4-bolt plate widely, so there are some changes to fuselage lengths to accommodate COE in the correct position for balance as well as stiffness of the mast to accommodate the high loads.

I don't find anything wrong with outsourcing wing design as it makes sense to put the best possible product in the market. Crowdsourcing or contract design is nothing new and makes sense when measured against the cost to have a full time expert on staff to design foils, or taking another designer's time on staff to engineer these foils. Anyway, there is a lot more that goes into bringing a product to market than a contractor just dropping off a "finished" product at the door step of the brand. Brands have testers and product managers that make sure the product meets the design brief specs, and that it's able to be manufactured efficiently and with high quality tolerance. This isn't easy in small batch manufacturing such as we see in wake, windsurf, kitesurf, and surfing.

The bottom line... the risk is worth it.

Great questions.

User avatar
jumptheshark
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1037
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:36 pm
Local Beach: Shhhhh
Favorite Beaches: Nude
Gear: The good stuff
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 117 times
Been thanked: 232 times

Re: Who are the foilers?

Postby jumptheshark » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:42 pm

Looking at development, kiteboarding, racing in particular was the catalyst for pretty much all the other branches. The French did the lions share of the work. We all owe them thanks. Foiling would not be a surf discipline if it hadn't been for them. Laird was foiling waves way before it caught fire in kite racing and it never went anywhere on the surf side. Only after the French cracked the formula and brought us fast stable foils you could ride strapless did anyone else even take notice.
These users thanked the author jumptheshark for the post:
Peter_Frank (Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:56 pm)
Rating: 10%

grigorib
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2212
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:12 pm
Kiting since: 2009
Local Beach: OBX; Clinton Lake, IL; Lake Michigan; La Ventana, SPI; Tawas, MI
Gear: Kites: Slingshot Rally 5/7/9/11m, SST 5m, Turbine 9m, Flysurfer Speed4 10m standard, Peter Lynn Venom II ARC 16m

Boards: Spleene RIP 37, Flysurfer Radical6 138, Flysurfer Flydoor5 XL, Slingshot/Moses 80/82/91/105cm masts with 590/330 695/425 683s/450 679/483 wingsets, Tim's 36" woody, Slingshot Dwarfcraft Micro 3'6" 2019-2020, MBS Comp 95x

For sale: Slingshot SST 6m 2018 $480, Slingshot Turbine 5m 2017 like new $450, BROkite carbon board 140x44cm like new complete $650, Slingshot Rally 6m 2017 like new $530

Moses 590/647/330 $740, Moses 633/749/483 $790, Moses 683s/749/483 $890, 75cm alu mast $200, 80cm alu mast $260
.
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 139 times
Been thanked: 185 times

Re: Who are the foilers?

Postby grigorib » Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:15 pm

“Hiding” H4 and H2 from kiters as wake and windsurf wings was a bit short sighted. They became a blast for kite foilers in particular

If below communication is not just a usual “buy a foil” spring pimping it would be cool to have a product like below:
- pick mast(s) - long for depth, edging hard and flying high, short for shallows/waves, super-short for “giving it a first try”
- pick mast plate or tuttle
- pick kite/wave/wake fuselage or windsurf fuselage
- pick wing(s). On one side of range is faster riding and lighter riders but also higher stall speed; on other - heavier riders, lower speeds (takeoff and stall) for waves/beginners/lightwind. Something like H3-H5-H1-i76-i84 line would be a clean line (H2/H4 were awesome but H1/i76 might be better substitutes)

Simple, less confusing I'd say it'd rather attract customers
Also it's highest time to introduce CNCed fuselage - elegant, light, tapered, without tail "adapter", without extra material (including extra material going inside the wing) but still compatible with overall setup.
Attachments
15BBBDBE-AA34-4A23-BBE1-2C8E6CE2E990.jpeg

grigorib
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2212
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:12 pm
Kiting since: 2009
Local Beach: OBX; Clinton Lake, IL; Lake Michigan; La Ventana, SPI; Tawas, MI
Gear: Kites: Slingshot Rally 5/7/9/11m, SST 5m, Turbine 9m, Flysurfer Speed4 10m standard, Peter Lynn Venom II ARC 16m

Boards: Spleene RIP 37, Flysurfer Radical6 138, Flysurfer Flydoor5 XL, Slingshot/Moses 80/82/91/105cm masts with 590/330 695/425 683s/450 679/483 wingsets, Tim's 36" woody, Slingshot Dwarfcraft Micro 3'6" 2019-2020, MBS Comp 95x

For sale: Slingshot SST 6m 2018 $480, Slingshot Turbine 5m 2017 like new $450, BROkite carbon board 140x44cm like new complete $650, Slingshot Rally 6m 2017 like new $530

Moses 590/647/330 $740, Moses 633/749/483 $790, Moses 683s/749/483 $890, 75cm alu mast $200, 80cm alu mast $260
.
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 139 times
Been thanked: 185 times

Re: Who are the foilers?

Postby grigorib » Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:06 pm

It was said enough about how some spots are different. Another La Ventana trip shown significant amount of foilers, in winds under 16 knots - it’s just foilers with rare exceptions of beginners and “lessons in progress”.

Many more than before are on short boards and many more are strapless.

windmaker
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1656
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2003 8:48 am
Local Beach: .
Style: Strapless surf and foil
Gear: F-One & Aeros kites/ HB surf/ Taaroa foil/ Manera
Has thanked: 15 times
Been thanked: 30 times
Contact:

Re: Who are the foilers?

Postby windmaker » Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:33 pm

Cab Driver wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:31 pm
windmaker wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:30 am
grigorib wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:53 pm
So do windsurf foil and surf/SUP foil markets pay off on investments into specific molds and design?
Do they benefit in means of knowledge/R&D/revenue or they're rather a burden?

Are they going to make it as a separate line or they'll be using kite/wake foil material?
As originally with kite foiling some manufacturers are willing to take the risk with wind and surf foils either because they are passionate or truly believe in them.

And as with kitefoil the rest will not actually develop or make there own wind/surf foils but have them made by someone else and then label them as there latest design which took years to develop :D

I don't find anything wrong with outsourcing wing design as it makes sense to put the best possible product in the market. Crowdsourcing or contract design is nothing new and makes sense when measured against the cost to have a full time expert on staff to design foils, or taking another designer's time on staff to engineer these foils.
Outsourcing is ok, taking the credit for a product someone else developed not so much... which is what outsourcing companies usually do.

joekitetime
Medium Poster
Posts: 100
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:58 pm
Local Beach: Sherman
Style: surf, foil, wake, plywood
Gear: wainman, slingshot, homegrown
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 66 times
Been thanked: 17 times

Re: Who are the foilers?

Postby joekitetime » Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:33 pm

I can only speak for what I've seen in the SF Area, mainly Sherman Island.

Lots of kite foilers, but lots of growth with windsurf foilers as well and a handful of wing foilers.

The windsurfers may have grown to 15% now, and the wing foilers maybe 1-2%

Last weekend at bolinas there was one local who sup foils on the waves nearly daily, and one guy out on a prone surf foil.


Return to “Hydrofoil”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: HugoMC and 3 guests