The Duotone Wing

[ronnie]

[tegirinenashi]

#DontNeedSunscreen #BoomPaddle #P̶a̶r̶a̶s̶a̶i̶l̶Duosail

[Horst Sergio]

@ronnie and Dan

Thanks for all the information.
The last video showing tacks gives the idea that the potential is not so bad.

15 years ago I had myself a kitewing used for landboarding. When started foiling I have also seen the potential in the combination. I think this and the new inflatable design solve many of the distadvantages have been for water till now.
On the other hand I think group of interest will be limited to the surf and around 15-30 knts, even if it is maybe possible to start in less wind with the help of a wave. In higher winds as I remember I would have some doupts if it is possible to keep it stable enough inbetween surface gusts and turning winds. The wing has pretty much its own dynamic in those winds as you just can control pitch and yaw but roll just indirect via yaw. In the original use on a ice with high and therefore constant part of apparent wind, no problem, but in gusts it is as I remember. Biggest disadvantage for me would be to require big boards, but all those not few SUP foilers have such a board so for them for sure interesting.

[Dwight]

Sign me up!
Retired guys can never have enough toys. Especially when you’re loyal to the foil

[ronnie]

The other variants of wings in the past have also been posted, because the concept seems to be new and 'untried', but it seems to be getting tried a lot now.

The Slingshot wing.

[ronnie]

Another launching video from Alan Cadiz, but still using the method in the previous one at the same spot.



My guess is that it would be a useful feature if a wing would hover when on a nose leash. That would mean that you could expect to let the wing go when falling and it would naturally hover on the leash until you sorted yourself and the board out.
Horst suggested that yaw is possibly an issue with a wing, so the 'boom' might need an extension for a wing with dihedral to hover well.

[Horst Sergio]

My guess is that it would be a useful feature if a wing would hover when on a nose leash. That would mean that you could expect to let the wing go when falling and it would naturally hover on the leash until you sorted yourself and the board out.
Horst suggested that yaw is possibly an issue with a wing, so the 'boom' might need an extension for a wing with dihedral to hover well.

Hi Ronnie,
it is yaw which you have under control when holding with two Hands, but roll that is just controlled indirect by yaw as you have no controlled lever for roll, pretty much like on a foilboard. In theory it will hang on a nose line, but in practice of turbulent surface wind especially inbetween waves it will roll and dip in the drink, with one and the other tip, which could cause it to flip over in the worst case. But I would expect that the new inflatables are here already much better than my old kitewing with heavy alu frame and therefore high momentum of inertia you had to fight against, especially on land when a gust pigs up the upper wing tip it allways rolles up and ditches with down tip into ground -> catapult, but as I said should be much better with the lighter inflatables. Even worse when the alu frame flies back towards you on the leash, felt scary in high winds and also rigging was terible, so many problems already solved with those inflatables.

I also could imagine the duotones with a boom stick are more direct and compfortable to controll in yaw then the one with just soft straps. Tried also that inflatabel windsurf wing and the biggest issue appart from all the softness has been those soft straps. Also like the idea of the slingshot wing (with Lobos) combined with a paddle even if not sure if worth on the end.

On the end most interesting: Who will come up first and who will come up first with a functional product, which experience shows need not to be the same.

[ronnie]

My guess is that it would be a useful feature if a wing would hover when on a nose leash. That would mean that you could expect to let the wing go when falling and it would naturally hover on the leash until you sorted yourself and the board out.
Horst suggested that yaw is possibly an issue with a wing, so the 'boom' might need an extension for a wing with dihedral to hover well.

Hi Ronnie,
it is yaw which you have under control when holding with two Hands, but roll that is just controlled indirect by yaw as you have no controlled lever for roll, pretty much like on a foilboard. In theory it will hang on a nose line, but in practice of turbulent surface wind especially inbetween waves it will roll and dip in the drink, with one and the other tip, which could cause it to flip over in the worst case. But I would expect that the new inflatables are here already much better than my old kitewing with heavy alu frame and therefore high momentum of inertia you had to fight against, especially on land when a gust pigs up the upper wing tip it allways rolles up and ditches with down tip into ground -> catapult, but as I said should be much better with the lighter inflatables. Even worse when the alu frame flies back towards you on the leash, felt scary in high winds and also rigging was terible, so many problems already solved with those inflatables.

I also could imagine the duotones with a boom stick are more direct and compfortable to controll in yaw then the one with just soft straps. Tried also that inflatabel windsurf wing and the biggest issue appart from all the softness has been those soft straps. Also like the idea of the slingshot wing (with Lobos) combined with a paddle even if not sure if worth on the end.

On the end most interesting: Who will come up first and who will come up first with a functional product, which experience shows need not to be the same.

Hi Horst,
If they extend the 'boom' downward and forward, the further they move the leash point in that direction, the more stable the hover should become in roll and yaw?
The question could be - will it become stable enough with a small enough extension?

Of course hovering may not be a major advantage most of the time, and it may not be considered necessary. Things like that could be add-ons. Another possibility could be that adding angled handles at where the front hand is, will be an advantage and reduce the risk of tennis elbow.

[Jfoil]

I rode the 2,3,4 foilwings on a fanatic 2000 hydrofoil. I first learned to ride it in flat water beam reaches, then advanced to 6-9 mile downwind Maui runs. I absolutely love it, and didn’t want to give it back to Ken Winner, the designer. I feel free like a bird flying. I’m a 125lb female non-pro athlete and have no problem without a harness. Downwind the wind holds it for you basically. I used to SUP downwind (non-competitive) and hurt my shoulder paddling, so for me I am stoked to be able to downwind again. It’s so much easier and more fun than with a paddle. You can luff it and use the waves, and when you wallow, pull in a little on the wing and overcome that. I think it is going to be a success now because it is inflatable, light weight(3lbs), portable, and big surf foils need such little pump to get foiling. I will see if I can post a video. I will always love kiting waves but this is a nice way to get away from crowds and have fun.

Thanks for the feedback.

I have been recovering from tennis elbow over the last 4 or 5 months and the Wing does look like it could be a tennis elbow risk if you are gripping it hard and resisting torque from the wing trying to rotate the bar from side to side. Do you grip the bar to resist torque or can you just hook your grip onto it and it has enough stability to let you relax and let it sort itself out?

You mention going upwind on it - can you explain how that works in a bit more detail? How long is the mast? How wide is the board? What foil works, and I guess there is a trade off between what gear rides waves well and what goes upwind well?

Sorry about your tennis elbow. I battled that for months too, and PRP(platlet Rich plasma) helped.

In terms of how it affects the elbow, I would say I don’t get much arm or elbow load going downwind. My thighs get worked most, from pumping and controlling the foil on waves. The over-foiling FALLS from a wave lifting me, are the hardest on my body. If I had stronger legs I would be able to use the wing less, only for assist, and leg pump more. I’m a 47 a old female, non pro athlete so it’s not hard to be in better shape than me.

Going upwind is easy, just pull in a little to get on the foil. Upwind has the most load on the arms and shoulders and I didn’t consider any on the elbow. More shoulder. I’m still learning upwind, but I prefer being out in the ocean riding trade wind swell, so I am not really going upwind much. Alan Cadiz likes to do that, and he is looking at some harness ideas for more upwind stuff. I tried downwind with a spreader bar and did not need it for downwind.

I have been using the 6ft11” fanatic foil board but it’s way bigger than I need, but was all I had available to try on. It’s a much bigger board than Alan, and I am not as good of an athlete, so I can climb on and rest the wing on the board, or it can flag on the leash and then sit on my knees. When I feel enough power in the wing I get up on my back leg kinda like water starting but on the board.

One thing that is nice for me, if it’s a wind shadow or not windy, I can rest the wing end on the board and use it kneeling to get into the stronger wind or lay it down and prone paddle. I also have a stable enough board to stand so if the wind dies I can slog along to where I want to go standing. I have had times where I can’t relaunch a kite and have to swim in, and I don’t have that concern with the wing.

I’m afraid to post a video of kooky me because this forum seems brutal. I’m not a Ken, Jeffrey, or Alan or Sky.

It’s all so new, so I’m sure new ideas will just make it easier and more fun. Kiting is still wonderful, but I have done it for 14 years now so this is fun to play with too. Hope you heal quick.

[ronnie]

I rode the 2,3,4 foilwings on a fanatic 2000 hydrofoil. I first learned to ride it in flat water beam reaches, then advanced to 6-9 mile downwind Maui runs. I absolutely love it, and didn’t want to give it back to Ken Winner, the designer. I feel free like a bird flying. I’m a 125lb female non-pro athlete and have no problem without a harness. Downwind the wind holds it for you basically. I used to SUP downwind (non-competitive) and hurt my shoulder paddling, so for me I am stoked to be able to downwind again. It’s so much easier and more fun than with a paddle. You can luff it and use the waves, and when you wallow, pull in a little on the wing and overcome that. I think it is going to be a success now because it is inflatable, light weight(3lbs), portable, and big surf foils need such little pump to get foiling. I will see if I can post a video. I will always love kiting waves but this is a nice way to get away from crowds and have fun.

Thanks for the feedback.

I have been recovering from tennis elbow over the last 4 or 5 months and the Wing does look like it could be a tennis elbow risk if you are gripping it hard and resisting torque from the wing trying to rotate the bar from side to side. Do you grip the bar to resist torque or can you just hook your grip onto it and it has enough stability to let you relax and let it sort itself out?

You mention going upwind on it - can you explain how that works in a bit more detail? How long is the mast? How wide is the board? What foil works, and I guess there is a trade off between what gear rides waves well and what goes upwind well?

Sorry about your tennis elbow. I battled that for months too, and PRP(platlet Rich plasma) helped.

In terms of how it affects the elbow, I would say I don’t get much arm or elbow load going downwind. My thighs get worked most, from pumping and controlling the foil on waves. The over-foiling FALLS from a wave lifting me, are the hardest on my body. If I had stronger legs I would be able to use the wing less, only for assist, and leg pump more. I’m a 47 a old female, non pro athlete so it’s not hard to be in better shape than me.

Going upwind is easy, just pull in a little to get on the foil. Upwind has the most load on the arms and shoulders and I didn’t consider any on the elbow. More shoulder. I’m still learning upwind, but I prefer being out in the ocean riding trade wind swell, so I am not really going upwind much. Alan Cadiz likes to do that, and he is looking at some harness ideas for more upwind stuff. I tried downwind with a spreader bar and did not need it for downwind.

I have been using the 6ft11” fanatic foil board but it’s way bigger than I need, but was all I had available to try on. It’s a much bigger board than Alan, and I am not as good of an athlete, so I can climb on and rest the wing on the board, or it can flag on the leash and then sit on my knees. When I feel enough power in the wing I get up on my back leg kinda like water starting but on the board.

One thing that is nice for me, if it’s a wind shadow or not windy, I can rest the wing end on the board and use it kneeling to get into the stronger wind or lay it down and prone paddle. I also have a stable enough board to stand so if the wind dies I can slog along to where I want to go standing. I have had times where I can’t relaunch a kite and have to swim in, and I don’t have that concern with the wing.

I’m afraid to post a video of kooky me because this forum seems brutal. I’m not a Ken, Jeffrey, or Alan or Sky.

It’s all so new, so I’m sure new ideas will just make it easier and more fun. Kiting is still wonderful, but I have done it for 14 years now so this is fun to play with too. Hope you heal quick.

Thanks for the additional info - very few people have used this wing as yet.

My guess is that downwind foiling alone will be more natural for the wing and have more basic requirements, but to be able to beat upwind on the foil will add more requirements and bring compromises. I will have to do the upwind&downwind type.

From what you say, gripping the bar and using your forearms has not been a significant part of downwinding. It's good to hear that Alan is working on a wing harness system for those long beats upwind. The strong dihedral of the wing should stabilise the Duotone wing a bit, and the more a harness line can do, the better.