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The Duotone Wing

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ronnie
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Re: The Duotone wing

Postby ronnie » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:28 pm

The idea isn't new. This is Flash Austin with his wing idea a few years back.


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Re: The Duotone wing

Postby jumptheshark » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:42 pm

This stuff has been around the block more than once. Every time I see it, I have the same thought. Chiefly that there are less cumbersome readily available ways to get better upwind, better speeds, better cornering and carving and just an overall better riding experience.

It's like the unicycle. Mostly novelty and for most of us there is a better riding experience with a normal bike.

Stabless foiling will push foiling the same way. Fun for some I'm sure, but not really what most of us are looking for.
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Re: The Duotone wing

Postby jumptheshark » Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:00 pm

This was where this concept started...… back in 1986ish. From what I can see, it was way better with the mast. Nothing since has looked very impressive.

You see people like Sky, or Kristin or Mitu putting along on the latest version and compare it to what any of those people are capable of with a kite and it makes the wing look laughable.




It's not just how it looks. Anything new can look awkward at first and still catch on and evolve if it has inherent advantages. Foiling for instance. When I first saw racers all hunched over rocketing in straight lines, I thought..... never, but even with that thought, I knew it would take over racing. The inherent improvement in speed over choppy conditions, the angles upwind, the efficiency in low wind, all added up to an undeniably better race craft. Quite clearly it has evolved to be a great wave riding, light wind, and carving tool too and has exploded across disciplines.

There is none of that in this wing. From what I can see each and every time it comes around. There is no inherent improvement on what we are already doing.

Am I missing something?
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Re: The Duotone wing

Postby BWD » Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:20 pm

And foils used to be so inefficient they just towed them with a boat,or so glitchy they weren't fun for normal riders...
But like early (and current) foiling the riders in the videos above, that know what to do, do well.
The guy falling all the time is using it too much like a windsurf sail, digs a wingtip instead of letting the wing go overhead to jibe.
Obviously these things look early in development.
I would guess it could be 5-10 years from it being good and accessible if it improves as slowly as hydrofoiling.
Hope it can accelerate faster though, could be interesting.
The kitewing had another problem, it had high tension like a windsurf sail and the wingtips had carbon/glass battens that broke frequently.
The wind weapon (late 80s or 90s version with a mast and uni joint at top and bottom) had a big problem; it could catapult you forward like a windsurfer, or backwind and catapult you backward (full face helmet recommended), Or catapult you sideways. Too many ways to hurt you hence the name wind weapon.

Next design I would try could be a hybrid, with some flexible spar across the middle of the LE in a pocket behind a smaller inflatable LE tube, & a rigid strut or boom.
But probably inflateable-only supported tips to reduce injury, weight and breakage.
And maybe add back a harness loop.
Realistically though I'd first try 5-10m lines and a tiny bar with a kite, since it would also be used for "normal" activities.
On that tangent, one could do quite an expedition with say a peak in a tiny backpack, a paddle, and a foiling SUP.

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Re: The Duotone wing

Postby ronnie » Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:29 pm

jumptheshark wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:00 pm
This was where this concept started...… back in 1986ish. From what I can see, it was way better with the mast. Nothing since has looked very impressive.

You see people like Sky, or Kristin or Mitu putting along on the latest version and compare it to what any of those people are capable of with a kite and it makes the wing look laughable.

It's not just how it looks. Anything new can look awkward at first and still catch on and evolve if it has inherent advantages. Foiling for instance. When I first saw racers all hunched over rocketing in straight lines, I thought..... never, but even with that thought, I knew it would take over racing. The inherent improvement in speed over choppy conditions, the angles upwind, the efficiency in low wind, all added up to an undeniably better race craft. Quite clearly it has evolved to be a great wave riding, light wind, and carving tool too and has exploded across disciplines.

There is none of that in this wing. From what I can see each and every time it comes around. There is no inherent improvement on what we are already doing.

Am I missing something?
It seems to me that the wing is not trying to compete with a kite or sail. I think it is competing with a paddle.

Part of foiling is to ride waves on a foil using a paddle. The wing replaces the paddle if there is enough wind.

Many places only get waves generated by local wind, and there is therefore likely to be wind around (maybe travelling in a similar direction to the waves).
For those conditions (and downwinders), it is difficult or impossible to paddle back upwind to catch another wave.
The short clip of Sky tacking and riding upwind, and flagging the wing out to ride the wave, is the new thing the wing brings.

It could be improved in how well it flags out for riding the wave and how efficient it is in foiling upwind. It does also allow for repositioning it as you turn, or using it for some power when you need it.

That is just my guess at where it will apply, but I think those things are what it has to do well to succeed. It is also seemingly one of the easiest ways to tack.

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Re: The Duotone wing

Postby tmcfarla » Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:53 pm

I think it depends on price and how easy they can make it. If they sell it cheap, and it isn’t too hard to learn, I can definitely see getting one so non-kiting friends could come to the beach with me.

There seems to be this progression of price in sports: windsurfers were (I’m told) relatively cheap when they came out, and a competent sailer could hop on one and figure it out quickly, then the industry moved to crazy high prices and performance gear, and that is what opened up kiting so much- it just seemed so down-to-earth relative to windsurfing- sure it was a bit harder to learn, but you didn’t need an rv to get your gear around. Kiting has now followed into high prices and performance gear, and it is was always too difficult to just hand a kite to someone to figure out.

A really simple, cheap sailboat doesn’t have to perform well to be awesome, it just has to work enough. maybe this will be it. If I could give this to my wife or a friend to sup with while I kited, I’d buy one in a heartbeat.

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Re: The Duotone wing

Postby jumptheshark » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:18 pm

ronnie wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:29 pm


It seems to me that the wing is not trying to compete with a kite or sail. I think it is competing with a paddle.

Part of foiling is to ride waves on a foil using a paddle. The wing replaces the paddle if there is enough wind.

Many places only get waves generated by local wind, and there is therefore likely to be wind around (maybe travelling in a similar direction to the waves).
For those conditions (and downwinders), it is difficult or impossible to paddle back upwind to catch another wave.
But wouldn't a small little kite in a stuff sack that you can just attach short lines to your paddle compete for the same market? I'm not saying everyone should just kite. I'm saying there is a better adaptation in the kite sphere than that thing. A little kite, paddle as the bar, mouth inflate a LE for flotation, enough bridle for stability, super delta for easy relaunch/stability in flight and you have a better upwind angle than that wing, and likely a smaller pack down. No need for harness, and it keeps the sail just far enough away to not be a rig right in yo face.

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Re: The Duotone wing

Postby Alvaro » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:47 pm

All I am saying is that Kiting wasn’t that viable as a sport with the Wipikas and Cabrinha Co2 2 line kites, but I loved every minute of it because I was exploring new things, and it was almost more about the journey than the destination.
The wing may or may not have a future, but I love the fact that there are new things to try and put me in between the wind and the waves.

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Re: The Duotone wing

Postby ronnie » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:58 pm

tmcfarla wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:53 pm
I think it depends on price and how easy they can make it. If they sell it cheap, and it isn’t too hard to learn, I can definitely see getting one so non-kiting friends could come to the beach with me.

There seems to be this progression of price in sports: windsurfers were (I’m told) relatively cheap when they came out, and a competent sailer could hop on one and figure it out quickly, then the industry moved to crazy high prices and performance gear, and that is what opened up kiting so much- it just seemed so down-to-earth relative to windsurfing- sure it was a bit harder to learn, but you didn’t need an rv to get your gear around. Kiting has now followed into high prices and performance gear, and it is was always too difficult to just hand a kite to someone to figure out.

A really simple, cheap sailboat doesn’t have to perform well to be awesome, it just has to work enough. maybe this will be it. If I could give this to my wife or a friend to sup with while I kited, I’d buy one in a heartbeat.
It could be used for those things, but again - there might be be other better options. There already is an iRig.


The wing seems to be designed for foiling, and maybe it will even need the help of a wave to get the board flying on the foil?
Last edited by ronnie on Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Duotone wing

Postby ronnie » Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:04 pm

jumptheshark wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:18 pm
ronnie wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:29 pm


It seems to me that the wing is not trying to compete with a kite or sail. I think it is competing with a paddle.

Part of foiling is to ride waves on a foil using a paddle. The wing replaces the paddle if there is enough wind.

Many places only get waves generated by local wind, and there is therefore likely to be wind around (maybe travelling in a similar direction to the waves).
For those conditions (and downwinders), it is difficult or impossible to paddle back upwind to catch another wave.
But wouldn't a small little kite in a stuff sack that you can just attach short lines to your paddle compete for the same market? I'm not saying everyone should just kite. I'm saying there is a better adaptation in the kite sphere than that thing. A little kite, paddle as the bar, mouth inflate a LE for flotation, enough bridle for stability, super delta for easy relaunch/stability in flight and you have a better upwind angle than that wing, and likely a smaller pack down. No need for harness, and it keeps the sail just far enough away to not be a rig right in yo face.
Sky is an expert wave rider, kiter, foiler, so I would expect that they have considered if a kite can do what they were aiming at better than the wing? They had to go to quite a bit of effort to develop the wing, and they are very established in kite development and production.
It will be interesting to hear why they think it does some tasks better.


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