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Foil vs LEI: how does the riding differ

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Regis-de-giens
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Re: Foil vs LEI: how does the riding differ

Postby Regis-de-giens » Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:18 pm

plummet wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:32 pm
Many good points above. Foils kites do turn slower size for size. It's the parasitic drag from the bridles. They are not as good in stupid gusty conditions. They also have more entrained power that is less difficult to shut off than an lei
maybe not the place to discuss this but I do not agree ; overall foil kites have less drag, including briddles, so it is the same during a turn ; the main reason for lower turn/reactivity is to me the high quantity of air entraped in a foil kite (more than its own weight) , that imposes a higher mass and inertia , so in detriment of any change of direction of the kite
plummet wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:32 pm
This is also true of smaller lower aspect foils. You cannot run at them, purposely slack line them and expect them to hold shape. They might or they might not and you end up with a crumpled mess on the ground/water. I'll admit the single skins line the FS Peak do a very very good job at drifting with slack. But they are not a water relaunchable kite and fail my safety requirements. I would love a set for the kite buggy though.
IMO it depends on kite design : I can swear that my pulsion withstand far better when you run toward it as any LEI (strutted at least).

My wind limit to like using LEI is approx like you: 11-12 knots to ensure a relaunch with a bit margin (which still allows to risk some new tricks) ; foil vs Lei: what I love most on foils is the piloting feeling, low bar, you can feel the light weight, and the ability to go deeper downwind with still the kite in the sky ; then above 12 knot I like the agility and fast turn of the LEI, its instant deposed in variable winds, its safety for offshore winds

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Re: Foil vs LEI: how does the riding differ

Postby foilholio » Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:56 pm

I think the minimum drag producing the most depower is maybe worse on a foil but the lift to drag is certainly better otherwise they wouldn't win races. Main reason for slow turning is Air weight giving high inertia and the way the wing distorts when steered. Foils tend to distort to a more efficient shape which turns slower. You can't have everything it seems.

Foil kites have the most capable drift of any kite but are not the easiest. They tend to drift best directly overhead and can require more active setup maybe even some deep positioning. Models of foil vary in drift, but all can do it even race kites. Generally the bigger size and lower AR the better and easier they drift.

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Re: Foil vs LEI: how does the riding differ

Postby plummet » Sun Apr 07, 2019 6:58 pm

foilholio wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:56 pm
I think the minimum drag producing the most depower is maybe worse on a foil but the lift to drag is certainly better otherwise they wouldn't win races. Main reason for slow turning is Air weight giving high inertia and the way the wing distorts when steered. Foils tend to distort to a more efficient shape which turns slower. You can't have everything it seems.

Foil kites have the most capable drift of any kite but are not the easiest. They tend to drift best directly overhead and can require more active setup maybe even some deep positioning. Models of foil vary in drift, but all can do it even race kites. Generally the bigger size and lower AR the better and easier they drift.
Sure, you can drift a foil if you position it deep. But you cant slack line them significantly. That's when you get uncontrollable collapses. If your riding style doesn't slack line ever then that's not a problem. I personally enjoy a bit of slack on purpose sometimes.

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Re: Foil vs LEI: how does the riding differ

Postby tomtom » Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:04 pm

I dont want to be dick - and tell this hundred more time. But i say it anyway. If you want drift buy fucking P4. Till now there was gradual improvements in drift between kites not revolutionary. Some kites drift better some worse. Race kites like chrono are among worses and mid ar foil kites and wave leis among betters. They all somewhat drift /passively or actively /by staying steerable/
P4 is nothing like this - this kite drift is that i was not able to slack lines in 15knts+ wind no matter how hard i tried. On surf wing HF no matter i did. And i tried very hard. Kite on zenith a bum strait downwind on wave and pumping like crazy. Not only i wasnt able to colapse this little fuc---ker i wasnt able to slack lines...

I feel obliged to pass this info same way as was Gunnar preaching about Moses 633 - in time when nobody even Moses believe that this is kite foil. Thanks for Gunnar i was able to ride onda one year sooner!

So eventhough P4 is not marketed as water kite - it is best freeride wave HF kite. If you want something extraordinary just buy one. They work only in mid to strong wind and only 3,4,5 sizes.

Amen

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Re: Foil vs LEI: how does the riding differ

Postby slowboat » Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:16 pm

We should clarify what we mean by drift. To me, true drift is how well a kite stays in the air and flies with SLACK lines. If the lines are not slack, that is a kite that flies well downwind and is pulling you downwind but is not truly drifting. Makes a difference in wave riding
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Re: Foil vs LEI: how does the riding differ

Postby Peter_Frank » Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:05 pm

True, a kite with good drift is one where you can ride towards the kite in low wind or when riding waves, and with slack lines the kite do not collapse nor tuck forward, just floats balanced, till you regain line tension :thumb:

8) PF

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Re: Foil vs LEI: how does the riding differ

Postby jatem » Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:14 pm

The drift with a Peak4 is next level compared to a wave LEI, absolutely wipes the floor. It's very different to other kites, and I wouldn't make any assumptions until you've tried one. The peak floats along like a stable plastic bag in the wind when you head towards it. The power can be turned completely.

In terms of ease of handling, responsiveness, and staying in the air when you're cruising around on a hydrofoil, the peak 4 makes traditional LEIs seem very fickle and prone to falling like a stone.

Regis-de-giens
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Re: Foil vs LEI: how does the riding differ

Postby Regis-de-giens » Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:40 pm

To me the drift ability gathers 2 kite features:
- its structural Stability under low line tension or during the longer time possible with full slack lines (as said above).
- but also its ability to catch the wind to go downwind as fast as possible

In the ideal world it should do both in the same time, bit their are often antinomic, meaning having a high drag and still in good shape when not tensioned... peak (if stable, v1 was not) should be a killer at this with its fluttering when not tensioned.

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Re: Foil vs LEI: how does the riding differ

Postby tomtom » Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:02 pm

Yea. I Peaks sits definately more deep in WW than but it will not pull you downwind it just float . The lines doesnt slack because of its drift - not because of its downwind pull. Normal kites have momentum so they tend to stay in they position - if you go towards them lines go slack. With peak not. It has zero own momentum so as long as your direct downwind speed is less than wind speed /which is almost always in case in 15+knts winds/ it just float on unslacked lines /and stays completely responsible/. Normal LEIS have this drift - lines goes slack - kite drift on its own till you it stop respond and either colapse or just fall on side. You must then regain tension by directing board from kite. Then when lines are tight - kite first fly to its new ww position and then you regain control. Closed cell foil kite are same with one thing worse - kite on slack lines can loose its shape and then you must wait even longer - lines tight, regain shape, new position, back in control. Peak is always in correct position in regarding to you and fully responsible. This characteristic is almost completely without downsides. It has turning speed and feel of leis. In fact it is much closer to LEI than foil. 4m Peak is blast - its angry wasp. And as somebody says water restart is overated. Not because you cannot restart Peaks /you can/ but you just dont drop them...

To be fair there are some small downsizes:

If you depower them at certain point they start flapping. When they start - they fall deeper in WW. This depower you dont experience while riding - just on beach while letting bar or while board recovery.
You can backstall them with little feedback on bar.
They go upwind worse and you feel your leg more - but this is much less in case with smaller sizes 4,3 and completely manageable on 5. On hf you have never problem with upwind.
They are worse to upwind body drag.
It wont jump at all. Not in HF big wing sizes - im on 5 when next guy is on 15 sonic...

and thats it.

These is absolutely overweighted with:

D R I F T

then drift while staying responsible
Small package /with bar like 2 t-shirts/
Quick setup /under 1 min with bar on/
Best self lauch land from all kites - first where you actualy say no to your wife - no i really dont need your help.
No stress handling - you can give them to your grandma - it never overflyed it never refuse to response to control input - normal kites do this we are just used to this and we know how to handle it.
No need to constant pull upper line just to kite is not going down /its not autozenith - its just this kite is 3x lighter than your - so downward force is almost not existing
Its first real one hand wrist controlled kite

and then DRIFT
and then then then
is cheap.

And no - its not boring super stable beginner kite. It turn faster than wave lei of comparable power about same than wave LEI of same size. It wont require longish bar. Im actualy making super small 40cm bar for 3 where will my hands barely fit. For 4 and 5 im using 44cm bar.

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Re: Foil vs LEI: how does the riding differ

Postby slowboat » Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:11 pm

Sorry but if the lines are not slack, they have tension, which means they have to be pulling you.
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