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Foil vs LEI: how does the riding differ

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tomtom
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Re: Foil vs LEI: how does the riding differ

Postby tomtom » Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:12 pm

Regis-de-giens wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:40 pm
To me the drift ability gathers 2 kite features:
- its structural Stability under low line tension or during the longer time possible with full slack lines
I was thinking this too and yet Peak has almost no structural stability and yet its not somehow better in drift but next level...

Regis-de-giens wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:40 pm
should be a killer at this with its fluttering when not tensioned.
And this is one of more surprising thing to me. It dont flutter while it drift. Plastic bag /its very good analogy thanks for that/ doesnt flutter while it drift, only when you hold it.

tomtom
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Re: Foil vs LEI: how does the riding differ

Postby tomtom » Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:17 pm

slowboat wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:11 pm
Sorry but if the lines are not slack, they have tension, which means they have to be pulling you.
You have right - there must be some pull and indeed there is some pull but its soooo little - in this riding position you even dont need depower you are riding sooo close to wind speed that its like nothing. In sense you cannot ride to zero power /completely slacked lines/ you have right.

But no other kite give me ever so kiteless feeling - not even close. And im coming from wave LEIS

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Re: Foil vs LEI: how does the riding differ

Postby kitexpert » Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:48 pm

tomtom wrote: It has turning speed and feel of leis. In fact it is much closer to LEI than foil
No, not anywhere near. I was lately on 8m Peak4 and it is not a fast turning kite, but it is not slow either. I'd guess it is somewhere like 12m LEI for its turning speed. 4m Peak4 is slow compared to 4m LEI, this was immediately obvious. But for kites that small turning speed is usually fast enough.

Problem with Peak4 is how it behaves depowered, unfortunately it still vibrates quite a lot. Even though you might get used to it it is not a very pleasant feel, you feel it in your hands. You are tempted to pull bar in to get it more steady, but then kite pulls too hard. This resulted for me constant seeking of the tolerable bar position (it was highish wind for 8m Peak). However looping is much improved from earlier versions because of the smooth wing tips, Peak4 generates some useful power by active flying.

That is true turning feel is closer to LEI's than foil kites have, this is because single skin kite has low inertia and to some degree similar aerodynamic characteristics to LEI (actually LEIs are single skin kites). This means single skin kite reacts quite fast and also accelerates well, but very soon high drag kicks in and restricts speed, this is easily observed when Peak is flied through the WW. Foil kite starts slower but it accelerates for much longer time and reaches top speed (and pull) relatively late during power stroke. LEI's are something between and different types of LEI's behave quite differently.

Drifting properties for single skin kites are excellent because they just wont fly far enough in the WW that collapsing would occur. I don't know if it is even possible to front stall single skin foil kite.

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Re: Foil vs LEI: how does the riding differ

Postby tomtom » Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:12 pm

Read my other comment about P4 -i explicitly wrote only about 3,4 and 5. Other are different and i have theory why it is that and why the concept is not scalable. /In bigger sizes it has not enough rigidity from closed cell tips and from battens./
I dont agree about 4m vs 4m LEIs - even though 5m was my smallest LEI.

It doesnt vibrate AT ALL while riding - It has its range /+- LEIs like/ and here it doesnt flutter. If it flutter you are way overpowered. I was using 4m till 30+ knots in winter without any flutter.
Still talking about 3,4,5 only - i have these kite almost 1/2 year so i know. Flutter on these kites are only when sheeted completely out. Then you are way way out of trim.
"You are tempted to pull bar in to get it more steady, but then kite pulls too hard." this tells me that you was on wrong size and you probably know it. There is really not such a thing as comfortable hi-end while freeride HF on any kite. As soon as you are constrain yourself to upwind and downwind and feel uncomfortable on beam reach you have too much kite. And this is way before any flutter

I appologize to be off topic - this all should be in P4 Thread
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jatem
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Re: Foil vs LEI: how does the riding differ

Postby jatem » Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:54 am

slowboat wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:11 pm
Sorry but if the lines are not slack, they have tension, which means they have to be pulling you.
The thing I liked about drifters was the drift, but the peak 4 is hilarious in comparison. The peak becomes invisible when you head downwind on a hydrofoil in swell, no competition.

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Re: Foil vs LEI: how does the riding differ

Postby foilholio » Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:13 pm

I wouldn't say the drifter is great for slack line. My experience with earlier peak is yes you can slack line but the potential to hold shape is less than foils. The float on slack can be better, but depends on if it holds it's shape more open. It recovers it's shape quicker and better than foils. Overall I saw huge potential for surf. This new peak sounds like it could be it.
plummet wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 6:58 pm
Sure, you can drift a foil if you position it deep. But you cant slack line them significantly. That's when you get uncontrollable collapses. If your riding style doesn't slack line ever then that's not a problem. I personally enjoy a bit of slack on purpose sometimes.
You can slack line a foil far beyond any LEI. Foils vary in how well they handle slack lines, like LEI do. Unlike LEIs foils fly further forward and so slack easier. My riding style predominantly is with slack lines and that is on foil kites. Positioning deeper can be used to help keep the kite in sight, or prevent riding past it. Just because it is deeper doesn't mean you can't slack it.

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Re: Foil vs LEI: how does the riding differ

Postby tomtom » Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:55 pm

Foily - i give myself promise this is last time i wrote about P4 :) . Look at me - look at Jakemoore - we both have MID aspect foil kites too. We both have LEIs too. We know them.
They have some things where they are better than Peaks. But in drift... There is no compare. If you compare wave LEI vs mid aspect foil with good drift there is some difference.
But this difference is unimportant small vs difference anything vs Peak 4. Peak 4 in small sizes is different kite than P3 - completely. I suspect that in bigger sizes P4 - is same baggy slow stuff than P3 because reinforcement from batten and closed cell tips are not able to support such big structure in way it can in smaller sizes. I wasnt able to slack P4 - i think you need much bigger and faster waves to do it. For example you cannot run fast enough on beach to slack them at 15+ knts /its not so easy to run 15+knts in wetsuits and with kite/. You need big waves which give you bigger than 15kts direct downwind speed which also is not easy given you usualy dont ride straight down from wave and wave that big usualy have different direction than wind /its not wind wave/

Howgh - im breaking my keyboard

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Re: Foil vs LEI: how does the riding differ

Postby foilholio » Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:39 pm

The fact you can not slack is maybe not good. I know many LEI described as "wave" kites that do not slack, but pull and pull. The more you ride at said kites the more they pull downwind. Some like this and think this is what a wave kite should be. Most likely because with such behavior the kite at least stays in the air. Most LEI with slack just turn or fall straight for the water, and even the ones which can slack will still do that with low enough wind, which is not low at all at maybe 15 or even 20knots.

Slack is needed for the best surf feel. No line tension there is no pull. This is almost the same condition you have as with no kite. The only difference is the kite and bar does still exist but not to pull at all. The closest approximation for those that have never experienced it would be to just ride at the kite till it crashes and continue or unhook and throw it away, or try surfing...

I have read what you say about the Peak 4. It sounds good. For sure the ability of single skins to fly in as little as 1-2knots of wind would allow them to hold line tension being ridden at in less wind. I find that with say a minimum of 5-6knots on some foils to be able to pass them in as high as 25knots yet I can still slack line down to 7-8knots. For certain the speed and size and direction of the wave have a lot to do with what is possible in what wind.

You can test the slack ability of a kite quite easy standing on the beach, no running needed :-) . Simply pull in a length of front lines and let go. The more front line it can handle and how well it recovers and (if it) stays in the air the better a kite is at slack.

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Re: Foil vs LEI: how does the riding differ

Postby kitexpert » Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:19 pm

I don't know if slowness of bigger Peaks has much to do with the structure, they are just big. It should be remembered that single skin design drags air with it/inside its LE. So there is considerable inertia even though kite itself is so light weight. Drag is so high it would need very high lift for big sizes to get L/D up - unfortunately for normal weight people it is a bit too much, you just can't hold that kind of tension in your front lines kite would turn/fly fast.

On the other hand every small kite has low inertia, relatively biggest advantage here is for foil kites (or biggest disadvantage is for big foil kites). This is of course because volume of foil kite doesn't increase linearly (doubled size means almost tripled volume). Small kites can be usually 100% loaded, then their L/D reaches maximal level.

I don't know if it was so much wind when I was on 8m Peak, LEI's around were 10-14m sized. But I had to seek comfortable bar position for depower and to control flutter. I also found out depower itself is not very smooth (on-off), it is effective though. When I switched to a LEI difference in smoothness and overall performance was quite large. To say that normal pushing bar out (without pulling trimmer in) is being "way way out of trim" does not make sense.

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Re: Foil vs LEI: how does the riding differ

Postby tomtom » Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:37 pm

My keyboard is broken so i cannot answer and or argue. :)


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