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Disadvantages of larger foil wings?

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tomtom
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Re: Disadvantages of larger foil wings?

Postby tomtom » Thu May 02, 2019 7:10 pm

On kite it is much easier to breach wing while crank upwind - thats whats limit very wide span.
It is possible to ride such wing - you just must be more careful.

But imo you dont need such performance /extreme L/D/ with kite power at your service.
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Re: Disadvantages of larger foil wings?

Postby tomtom » Thu May 02, 2019 7:11 pm

elguapo wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 6:57 pm
this may only be slightly on topic...

but is there a reason to NOT use very high aspect wings such the albatross foil from SPG or horue's vini foil?

both are excellent for pumping and are excellent in surf... but neither are marketed for kitesurf.
i'd thinking anything foil you can pump..should be excellent on a small kite (or am i wrong?)
my answer was to this

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Re: Disadvantages of larger foil wings?

Postby Peter_Frank » Thu May 02, 2019 7:12 pm

elguapo wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 6:57 pm
this may only be slightly on topic...

but is there a reason to NOT use very high aspect wings such the albatross foil from SPG or horue's vini foil?

both are excellent for pumping and are excellent in surf... but neither are marketed for kitesurf.
i'd thinking anything foil you can pump..should be excellent on a small kite (or am i wrong?)

They will feel a lot more "dead", at least a lot less agile when on the wave or even just when you try to make fast S turns.

And they are "harder" and not as forgiving when you push these wings.

That is the price for higher AR.

They can still turn quite well though, so a personal choice how much compronise one wants to go into.

As tomtom said, if you want PERFORMANCE, go for the higher AR, if you want liveless and ease, for for low AR.
They all go great upwind compared to old non-foil boards.

Unfortunately I dont think you will have a chance of knowing what you prefer, untill you have had many types over the years :roll:

8) PF

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Re: Disadvantages of larger foil wings?

Postby elguapo » Thu May 02, 2019 7:33 pm

this is an example on shape..
Image
..i believe the wingspan is 121cm

i understand the disadvantages of loss agility...
but i'm thinking a foil that "flies" efficiently would only need the kite strong enough to waterstart(?)


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Re: Disadvantages of larger foil wings?

Postby Peter_Frank » Thu May 02, 2019 8:27 pm

elguapo wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:33 pm
this is an example on shape..
Image
..i believe the wingspan is 121cm

i understand the disadvantages of loss agility...
but i'm thinking a foil that "flies" efficiently would only need the kite strong enough to waterstart(?)

Snip...

A 121 span wing will be extremely slow at turning, as you write.
In my experience it slows down drastically from around 80 cm span and up.

But it will also be pretty useless for going high upwind when powered, as you can not crank it much before it ventilates, when kitefoiling.
On a windfoil you dont crank as much, and most also seem to be less interested in liveliness :roll:

Instead of this high span and high AR, you can go lower AR and big area, and get low speed starts, and able to crank it hard both in turns and going upwind, besides being fun and lively.

So if not racing, lower AR will usually be the choice for big wings, except in marginal winds where it is on cost of liveliness.

8) Peter
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Re: Disadvantages of larger foil wings?

Postby tomtom » Thu May 02, 2019 9:03 pm

These very high AR wide span wings are for pumping powered surf foiling where you have very limited power available /only about 250 W human power/ and they have to be as efficient as possible. Thats why new black in foil pump are high AR a super wide span. Gunnar experimenting now with 150cm wing. These wings obviously glide much better than low AR ones so much more glide from each pump is possible.
I think in short time there will be possible sustained pump powered flight.

Of course these high aspect super long span foils will ride "little" different :)

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Re: Disadvantages of larger foil wings?

Postby Matteo V » Fri May 03, 2019 1:33 am

It really seems to me that the hydrofoil world is about at the time kiteboarding was back around 2001. I mean, about every 2 years your wings are obsolete.

Makes me wish Bruno Legaignoux would quit on the "high pressure kite" and fix the issues we have in foiling. Maybe he could invent a "new supported leading edge hydrofoil"!

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Re: Disadvantages of larger foil wings?

Postby stevez » Fri May 03, 2019 2:10 am

Matteo V wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 3:38 pm
Some of my assumptions would be:

1. Larger wings will be harder to control if you become overpowered in the kite and not allow you to go downwind with as much control when overpowered.
2. Larger wings will not let you ride with the board on the water downwind in overpowered conditions.
3. Larger wings will have a narrower range where you can "hold down" or "correct" the pitch of a wing.

Any thoughts on my assumptions?
Second what Foil says, you mitigate the "overpowered" factor by riding much smaller kites.
Assumption 2 applies in general - you don't really end up riding large wings on the water at all. They just pop straight up.
Assumption 3 does not apply at all. You ride smaller kites in the same wind range, and smaller kites have a greater available on the bar depower, which give you a wider range. Plus you can often pump through lulls, and pivot turn on transitions without dropping off the foil, which give even more low end range.

The main disadvantage I can think of is they are not that much fun in flat water lake conditions, especially in light wind. For these conditions, a fast wing with a foil kite just looks like more fun to me. I can imagine the new albatross style wings might also be more fun that the 2nd generation bigger surf wings for chilled light wind mowing the lawn flat water sessions.

The bigger surf wings really come alive in swell, and the really big wings become fun in even the slightest ripples of windswell.
Matteo V wrote: It really seems to me that the hydrofoil world is about at the time kiteboarding was back around 2001. I mean, about every 2 years your wings are obsolete.
That's no lie! Collecting wings is an expensive hobby! And there's plenty of evolution and specialisation still ahead.
tswierkocki wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 5:27 pm
I spent the last year on the Cloud 9 S24 and recently bought the new X22, X24, and X28 wings to figure out the answer to your question for myself.
Just pulled the trigger on an X24 and X32 hybrid set. Looking forward to trying these wings out :) Not sure I'll kite with the X32 though. Might get the 28 later.

These look like awesome wings, and the new fuselage design looks like a relatively future proof platform.
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Re: Disadvantages of larger foil wings?

Postby Kamikuza » Fri May 03, 2019 2:51 am

Matteo V wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 3:38 pm
What are some of the disadvantages of larger foil wings? I know that top speed is limited with most surf/windsurf foils when used with a kite. But what should one expect to have to overcome when going from a smaller foil to a larger one?


Some of my assumptions would be:

1. Larger wings will be harder to control if you become overpowered in the kite and not allow you to go downwind with as much control when overpowered.
2. Larger wings will not let you ride with the board on the water downwind in overpowered conditions.
3. Larger wings will have a narrower range where you can "hold down" or "correct" the pitch of a wing.

Any thoughts on my assumptions?
1. No.
2. No.
3. No.
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Re: Disadvantages of larger foil wings???

Postby Kamikuza » Fri May 03, 2019 3:18 am

Peter_Frank wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 4:53 pm
The disadvantages of big wings are IMO:

Feels and is slow and draggy - it is all about the feel.

When jumping you dont get as much speed (=height), and you might break your hydrofoil as the bigger wings put loads of stress on your gear when landing.


I disagree with some of above post though, as IMO they have a bigger windrange than the smaller wings, and easier to control too, also downwind.
You wont get too much speed thus not out of control as you can get on a smaller wing.
So no, IMO it is easy to ride the big wings as they dont accelerate when powered, like the small ones.

I know of at least one foil where the trim is not spot on, so it searches up - but other foils are dead on in trim meaning neutral, and this very foil is something they work on correcting.

The big wings can be extremely boring though, especially in flat water, thus sub 1000 cm2 feels often much more fun here :rollgrin:


Advantage of big wingss:

You can start in less wind, or ride with a smaller kite.
You can make narrow slow turns, good for waves or learnng.
You will often learn transitions easier on these.
You dont get too much speed and lose control, thus good in waves or downwind or when learning.

8) PF
I've ridden wings less than half the size of my 820 that felt more than twice as draggy, slow and unwieldy. Poor designs are poor performers, nobody should be surprised by that.

Been plenty fast on the SUP wing (maybe more than I have on the kite foil?) which is less scary due to the bigger wings stability.

If you're bored by big wings in flat water, I can only assume you've mastered all the transitions and tricks...? I've got a list to get around to, but it's no fun trying to be clever and fighting the swell or waves...

Gave up on jumping when I stopped using the rear strap, but jumping off the (strapless) board produces a surprising amount of height... But I can't imagine you'd want to jump with heavier gear anyway.


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