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Disadvantages of larger foil wings?

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Kamikuza
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Re: Disadvantages of larger foil wings?

Postby Kamikuza » Fri May 03, 2019 3:41 am

Width is an issue, especially with short masts but it can adapt or use longer masts.

That's not a big enough issue to outweigh the benefits for freeride IMO.

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Re: Disadvantages of larger foil wings?

Postby Matteo V » Fri May 03, 2019 4:09 am

Kamikuza wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 2:51 am
Matteo V wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 3:38 pm
What are some of the disadvantages of larger foil wings? I know that top speed is limited with most surf/windsurf foils when used with a kite. But what should one expect to have to overcome when going from a smaller foil to a larger one?


Some of my assumptions would be:

1. Larger wings will be harder to control if you become overpowered in the kite and not allow you to go downwind with as much control when overpowered.
2. Larger wings will not let you ride with the board on the water downwind in overpowered conditions.
3. Larger wings will have a narrower range where you can "hold down" or "correct" the pitch of a wing.

Any thoughts on my assumptions?
1. No.
2. No.
3. No.
Any......more.......elaborate thoughts on my assumptions?

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Re: Disadvantages of larger foil wings?

Postby Kamikuza » Fri May 03, 2019 4:29 am

:D Bottom of page two.

Well-designed foil shouldn't change trim with speed. Or rather, there are foils that don't and I really prefer those.

Assuming the above, trimming the board while riding is no different than any other foil.

Assuming you can adjust the foil position on the board -- rails help here, or go strapless ;) and move your feet.

Speed range is still huge. Assuming the first condition again.

Can't imagine I'd want to give up the glide the big wing gives either. Even dropping a size of wing is noticeable and undesirable for me.

But that's me...!

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Re: Disadvantages of larger foil wings?

Postby foilholio » Fri May 03, 2019 5:51 am

elguapo wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 7:33 pm
but i'm thinking a foil that "flies" efficiently would only need the kite strong enough to waterstart(?)
Even better you can pump start them :wink: .
Matteo V wrote: Any......more.......elaborate thoughts on my assumptions?
Let me help.

1. You don't have waves
2. You don't try ride waves
3. You can't ride waves
4. No tall buildings to jump off.

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Re: Disadvantages of larger foil wings???

Postby Peter_Frank » Fri May 03, 2019 8:00 am

Kamikuza wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 3:18 am
Snip...

I've ridden wings less than half the size of my 820 that felt more than twice as draggy, slow and unwieldy. Poor designs are poor performers, nobody should be surprised by that.

Been plenty fast on the SUP wing (maybe more than I have on the kite foil?) which is less scary due to the bigger wings stability.

If you're bored by big wings in flat water, I can only assume you've mastered all the transitions and tricks...? I've got a list to get around to, but it's no fun trying to be clever and fighting the swell or waves...

Gave up on jumping when I stopped using the rear strap, but jumping off the (strapless) board produces a surprising amount of height... But I can't imagine you'd want to jump with heavier gear anyway.

No no, it is not about that Kami.

The thing is, and it seems many got it like this:

A wing (identical) twice the size is twice as draggy, a fact.

This can be felt hugely when no waves, as the smaller wings just glide faster and more effortless and a more agile (feel light) both with or without kitepower.

You can also carve more laydown, which is what many surfers love and the reason why many of us enjoy hydrofoiling so much.
For some reason this characteristic goes down the drain with bigger wings, where you stand more upright unfortunately :(

Then the big ones got many other benefits, particularly in waves.


So the boring part is not because things are easy or not - it is the lack of drive and speed in turns, as this is the part that simply "feels good" for most kitesurfers I imagine :naughty:
Apart from losing the ability to "get around" fast of course.


There is a tradeoff, thus for the individual rider a point where speed and drive and feel good crosses with ease and ability NOT to go too fast on waves.

For me at 78 kg it is around 800-900 cm2 if no waves, and 1200 cm2 or more in waves.

For others it might be at different sizes :D

In lighter winds, many prefer really fast wings and foil kites instead of "freestyle/wave" wings of course, so another way to change gear.

8) Peter

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Re: Disadvantages of larger foil wings?

Postby ronnie » Fri May 03, 2019 10:36 am

The Horue XXLW is 121cm span (47.6") for an area of 1349 sq cm.
One possible solution for keeping high aspect ratio and large area, but without the wingtip breaking the surface could be biplane larger wings.

Image

It looks like when the upper wing breaches, you still have most of the lift from the lower wing.


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Re: Disadvantages of larger foil wings?

Postby Kamikuza » Fri May 03, 2019 11:06 am

Well, since we're grossly oversimplifying things, you also double the lift. L/D ratio remains unchanged.

My fear when getting the big wings was that I'd need more kite power and they'd feel hugely draggy. I didn't and they don't. Well, mine don't -- I put that down to design and construction.

Lack of speed and drive :roll:

At least one thing hasn't changed since I got my first foil -- people are still telling me what I'm experiencing and how I should be having fun :lol:
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Re: Disadvantages of larger foil wings?

Postby 3InletsWindsports » Fri May 03, 2019 9:08 pm

For kitefoiling in waves there is a balance, as I Feel it.
Between wave power and kite power.
Even with kite switched off and drifting it still adds to the equation.
The bigger wings on bigger waves over power the balance and the extra concentration to control kite takes away from the enjoyment of riding the wave.

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Re: Disadvantages of larger foil wings?

Postby TomW » Fri May 03, 2019 10:14 pm

Matteo V wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 3:38 pm
What are some of the disadvantages of larger foil wings? I know that top speed is limited with most surf/windsurf foils when used with a kite. But what should one expect to have to overcome when going from a smaller foil to a larger one?


Some of my assumptions would be:

1. Larger wings will be harder to control if you become overpowered in the kite and not allow you to go downwind with as much control when overpowered.
2. Larger wings will not let you ride with the board on the water downwind in overpowered conditions.
3. Larger wings will have a narrower range where you can "hold down" or "correct" the pitch of a wing.

Any thoughts on my assumptions?
I'm on moses 633 wing set strapless
1. No, you can go slower downwind and dump kite power easier
2. Don't know why you'd want to control power by surface riding. Just point upwind or go downwind while flying.
3. Don't agree. Range is better. You're going slower so it's easier to drive kite to window edge or go downwind and lift kite.


Overall i find bigger wing is easier in All conditions. Agree it can get boring in flat water.
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Re: Disadvantages of larger foil wings?

Postby Jyoder » Fri May 03, 2019 10:31 pm

I tried my old Stringy foil wing again after a couple months on my big surf wing and could hardly ride it. Took so much speed and effort. How the heck did I learn on that thing!?


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