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We need area labels for hydrofoil wings

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cglazier
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We need area labels for hydrofoil wings

Postby cglazier » Tue May 07, 2019 3:28 am

People talk about their 590 wings, their 633 wing, their surf wings, their lift wings etc. This is proprietary labeling by the manufacturer that tells us little. How would you like it if kite manufacturers labelled their kites with a span measurement or descriptions such as "freestyle" and never mentioned the area.

Often (but not always) the area of the wing is can be found if you search the internet. But really, why aren't hydrofoil wings labelled the same useful way that kites are?

Of course not all wings of a certain area are designed the same, but with kites you can have a 9 meter wave kite.. so why not use a descriptive wing label such as a 700 cm wave wing.

(I do see a couple of manufacturers labeling their bigger wings 1200 or 1500 which is very useful)

:roll: CG
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Re: We need area labels for hydrofoil wings

Postby grigorib » Tue May 07, 2019 4:06 am

Yes! Wing area is way more important identifier than wingspan (or any of “gull shape” subjective irrelevant BS). AR and profile thickness are nice numbers to consider but they’d be pretty specific to riding style and proportional to each wing size/style.

Strange though that most of manufacturers don’t scale their wings - most wings come in unique shape and made in single size and that’s just about as wrong as making each kite model in one size only.
Rider weight plays significant role so 135lbs rider vs 200lbs rider would need different wing sizes whether they race or ride waves.
Last edited by grigorib on Tue May 07, 2019 1:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: We need area labels for hydrofoil wings

Postby windmaker » Tue May 07, 2019 5:30 am

Agreed, 633, 683 etc means nothing unless you know the area, more so if you are not familiar with the brand.

Also such numbers sounds to me like some kites labeled 8.25m2 or 12.8m2 you get the feeling that they were measured after they were made :).

Wings should be labeled as 700 freeride, 900 wave or 550 race just like you would with kites or boards.

Some brands already do that.

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Re: We need area labels for hydrofoil wings

Postby Peter_Frank » Tue May 07, 2019 6:59 am

windmaker wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 5:30 am
Agreed, 633, 683 etc means nothing unless you know the area, more so if you are not familiar with the brand.

Also such numbers sounds to me like some kites labeled 8.25m2 or 12.8m2 you get the feeling that they were measured after they were made :).

Wings should be labelled as 700 freeride, 900 wave or 550 race just like you would with kites or boards.

Some brands already do that.

Very true, an example from KETOS, where a WaveXL wing is labelled WaveXL KF575-790 the latter is also the reference number.

Meaning span 575 mm and area 790 cm2.

One can always calculate AR then, which is 575*575/79000 = 4.2 :D

It seems we as "users" demand to know the area and span, so most brands have got separate pages now describing this, if not into their main order page.
But for some you have to google it and find someone who has measured.

As said, the thickness relative to chord and the actual profile is extremely important indeed, but when we most often only got or can measure the outline specs (span and area), that is the best we can aim for quite often.

8) Peter

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Re: We need area labels for hydrofoil wings

Postby Kamikuza » Tue May 07, 2019 1:52 pm

And weight -- ain't nobody listing weight in a consistent manner.
Peter_Frank wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 6:59 am
As said, the thickness relative to chord and the actual profile is extremely important indeed, but when we most often only got or can measure the outline specs (span and area), that is the best we can aim for quite often.

8) Peter
Some give volume as well.

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Re: We need area labels for hydrofoil wings

Postby jumptheshark » Tue May 07, 2019 2:35 pm

Weight... you wont get that from anyone but the lightest on the market.

In measuring my alloy foil compared to what people have reported here as the full carbon Onda 633 with 91 cm mast there is about 3 pounds dif. The Moses production boards are not feather light and can be beat by many pocket boards bringing the total difference in overall weight down below 2 pounds. So 11-12 pounds compared to 13-14 is not that big a difference for freeride foiling.

As to metrics of wings, thickness/profile is a major difference that is hard to appreciate from anything but comparative pics. A lot of the non kite specific surf wings are pretty thick. They are currently a trend and I think we will see kite wings stick with much thinner profiles but maintain decent overall area. Were still mid evolution and it takes a little research to figure out the different options out there.

Though the average kite freeride foiler might not be in it for outright speed, they likely don't want excess drag either. I don't foil very fast, and pretty much never ride loaded up for more than a few moments, but find being able to hit the power for a burst of speed essential to the fun. Thin profile is pretty key for that.

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Re: We need area labels for hydrofoil wings

Postby Peter_Frank » Tue May 07, 2019 2:55 pm

jumptheshark wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 2:35 pm
Snip...
A lot of the surf wings are pretty thick. They are currently the fashion and I think we will see kite wings settle on much thinner profiles but maintain decent overall area. Were still mid evolution and it takes a little research to figure out the different options out there.

Snip...

Are you sure about that?

I dont think so...
At least not for all brands - could be interesting if some would measure theirs (2-3 inches away from the center will give an idea).

The reason why many think they are "thick" is because they are wide.
It is not the thickness which is draggy, it is the thickness divided by the chord, meaning the thickness ratio.

I measured 4 or my Ketos wings, ranging from a fast small narrow 500 cm2 to a big wide Surf 1200 cm2 wing, and those between (in another thread).

And they were ALL roughly between 7 and 8 % in thickness, so the same :naughty:


So I dont think they are thick, eventhough I dont know the other ones apart from some being 10 %.

Having said that, I agree with you that there are so many different options that can work, maybe also work better :thumb:

8) PF

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Re: We need area labels for hydrofoil wings

Postby jumptheshark » Tue May 07, 2019 3:22 pm

Sorry, by surf wings, I don't mean kite surf, but outside of kite, like surf, SUP and wake wings. Those are all pretty thick profile, and there is plenty of promotion of them by MAC kite and others for use with a kite.

Neil Pride surf wings, some of the SS wings designed for surf or SUP and wings like Cloud 9, Naish's surf wings etc.

All the Ketos wings are kiting wings.

The one surf industry wing that does seem to have a pretty thin profile is the MFC, which is popular with Kai and Greg D for kiting.

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Re: We need area labels for hydrofoil wings

Postby cnski » Tue May 07, 2019 3:58 pm

The surf wings from Delta Hydrofoil have thin profiles too.

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Re: We need area labels for hydrofoil wings

Postby grigorib » Tue May 07, 2019 5:13 pm

For me 633 with its 1” thick profile is a bit too much for kiting. At that thickness foil becomes slower reducing high end compared to 683s and 590. I enjoy the lowend of 633 (1235 sq.cm) but pretty much I only need my wing not stall at very low speeds and 800-1000 sq.cm and 20mm profile have delivered, so that size is probably the tops what I need for my 200 lbs

All the 1300-1500 sq.cm and larger wings are probably domain of true wave riding, less of kiting setup.

Pendulum of foil large wings -> small wings -> large wings has bounced back :)
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