Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

How important is the weight of your bar and lines for light wind foiling?

A forum dedicated to Hydrofoil riders
jash999
Medium Poster
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 12:56 pm
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 2 times

How important is the weight of your bar and lines for light wind foiling?

Postby jash999 » Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:57 am

Any insights from the technically minded into the importance of the weight of the bar (and lines) on performance of a kite specially in light wind (below 10 knots)?

I see racers using very simple light weight carbon bars so I assume it makes a difference. But how much?

If a light wind tube kite shaves a few hundred grams off the weight of a 'normal' kite, how much difference would a few hundred grams off the bar make?
These users thanked the author jash999 for the post:
kite_hh (Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:36 pm)
Rating: 10%

Regis-de-giens
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1054
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:58 pm
Kiting since: 2002
Local Beach: France: St Laurent du Var, Cannes, Almanarre
Style: 62 kg , light wind
Gear: Conceptair pulsion 15&12&.369 , Elf 11 &7, OR Flite 10m , Airush One 9&6, Rally 6&4.
foil Ketos, Zone, OR mako, snowskis, kite-boat
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 30 times
Been thanked: 21 times

Re: How important is the weight of your bar and lines for light wind foiling?

Postby Regis-de-giens » Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:17 am

From my analysis and experience, you need to answer differently for each part of the bar; some actually impacts the ride, light wind abilities and speed, some are more on the "comfort and feeling side" (and without speaking of the psychological boost to have carbon ...; I would rate them like this from more important to less important wrt "performance and actual impact on very light wind:
- lines: it impact both the suspended weight (so there weight saving is almost equivalent to kite weight saving), but also the drag ( diameter of the line) ; drag will influence VMG ( so upwind angle and speed, important on race) but also kite agility ( less slack in rear lines if less drag) ; so thin lines are both better on marginal winds and race style
- trim and pre-lines : weight saving mostly when kite is at zenith phase, so impacting light wind zenith limit, negligible when kite is low in the window during the ride
- bar : almost no impact (unless auto-zenith in very light wind if you want to let the bar go), most is the pleasure ti have something light for travels and during ride ; I think that the gain "in agility", if existing, can only been seen by expert riders ; I feel the difference, but I can say it does not impact at all the success rate ( or failure rate:-) of my tricks...

PS : side note : on a LEI the weight of the kite is important, so above remarks are not so significant vs foilkite ; and on 10 knots, wind is high enough IMO to damp all improvements of the bar ... so start with a foilkite and below 8 knots to have a gain due to the lines , IMO (except racing with absolute VMG research)

windmaker
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1601
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2003 8:48 am
Kiting since: 1999
Local Beach: .
Style: Strapless surf and foil
Gear: F-One & Aeros kites/ HB surf/ Taaroa foil/ Manera
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 20 times
Contact:

Re: How important is the weight of your bar and lines for light wind foiling?

Postby windmaker » Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:21 am

My personal experience is that light (thin) lines do make a difference as they are more aerodynamic +it's a weight the kite actually has to carry. Hard to give a number tho. I have had many carbon and non-carbon bars , performance does not change but a light bar does give you a better feed back.

evan
Frequent Poster
Posts: 451
Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2004 5:48 pm
Kiting since: 2002
Local Beach: Brouwersdam
Style: Hydrofoil - Big Air
Gear: Moses Comet 111 2018
Peter Lynn Aero
Brand Affiliation: Infexion
Peter Lynn
Moses
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 29 times
Contact:

Re: How important is the weight of your bar and lines for light wind foiling?

Postby evan » Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:46 am

Lines: thinner = less drag = more low end. But differences are small, most noticeable on long line sets and absolute bottom end of your kite.

Bar: mostly a feeling thing, but for racers also a performance issue as it is way easier to spin the bar fast with a light bar vs heavy bar as it is impossible to give a carbon race bar too much swing. It is too light to continue spinning after the line are untwisted so you can wack it as hard as you like to minimize the time lost unspinning your lines after every tack/gybe.

If I occasionally grab a heavy bar i need to keep reminding myself to be gentle with spinning the bar, if I do it as my carbon bars I end up with spinning mess in front of me that won't stop until I grab the bar (with a 50/50 chance of grabbing it the wrong way)
Light bars also give you a more direct feeling with the kite as you don't have to fight the inertia. Most noticeable on 60-70cm bars and 18-21m foil kites.

slowboat
Frequent Poster
Posts: 432
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:55 pm
Kiting since: 2000
Style: wave foiling
Gear: This and that
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 49 times
Been thanked: 36 times

Re: How important is the weight of your bar and lines for light wind foiling?

Postby slowboat » Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:53 am

I notice a difference in water relaunch. Lots of thick line in the water=much more difficult relaunch.

User avatar
Peter_Frank
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 9266
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 1:00 am
Kiting since: 0
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Denmark
Has thanked: 92 times
Been thanked: 96 times

Re: How important is the weight of your bar and lines for light wind foiling?

Postby Peter_Frank » Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:29 pm

jash999 wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:57 am
Any insights from the technically minded into the importance of the weight of the bar (and lines) on performance of a kite specially in light wind (below 10 knots)?

I see racers using very simple light weight carbon bars so I assume it makes a difference. But how much?

If a light wind tube kite shaves a few hundred grams off the weight of a 'normal' kite, how much difference would a few hundred grams off the bar make?

It is of "mental" importance, A LOT :rollgrin:

But the weight doesnt matter really, in terms of performance, neglectable compared to the total weight.
Four strong thick lines only weighs about 100 grams (170 if 30 m lines), and you can only reduce it by a factor 4 to 5.

I use 0,83 mm frontlines and 0,6 mm rearlines, 30 m long + bridles, for my marginal wind foilkite, and a superlight carbonbar.
As opposed to the 1.5 to 2 mm lines when using "strong" kitelines.
The weight is one thing of course, but only mentally.

But I believe the thinner lines makes a difference in terms of drag when you fly and loop the kite with longer lines and 5 knots of wind - how much I dont know, but thats the reason why I have pinched "everything" out of it.

Also when possible only shorts or shorty and a light harness, no shoes no helmet etc - everything helps.

Apart from a superlight big special lightwind board, a light carbon foil, a higher AR bigger wing.

Then I get as low as I can in terms of lowend :rollgrin:

Even for racers, the more "direct" feel is mentally IMO, but plays a big role.
Lines get softer if thinner, thus here it can be better with thicker lines for racing where you want direct response to accelerate in gust instead of spilling, so the opposite desire than for marginal wind and drag.

8) Peter

elguapo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 276
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2019 6:01 pm
Favorite Beaches: cabarete, kanaha
Gear: ..
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 50 times
Been thanked: 53 times

Re: How important is the weight of your bar and lines for light wind foiling?

Postby elguapo » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:01 pm

i'm usually holding the bar.. so i dont notice the difference between for examplea light weight carbon bar from enatha and whatever kiteattitude/ozone uses for control bars. (nowadays i prefer having an easy to use QR...in spite of weight)

i DO notice a difference with this lightweight racing lines.

maybe its mental...
but i do think kites on dyneema sk99? racelines move noticeably faster..
maybe less wind resistance/drag? idk

...especially on lightweight foil kites

..but being able to really work a tiny kite on long(ie 30m) racing lines adds couple knots to the bottom end (or at least i think it does)

Regis-de-giens
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1054
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:58 pm
Kiting since: 2002
Local Beach: France: St Laurent du Var, Cannes, Almanarre
Style: 62 kg , light wind
Gear: Conceptair pulsion 15&12&.369 , Elf 11 &7, OR Flite 10m , Airush One 9&6, Rally 6&4.
foil Ketos, Zone, OR mako, snowskis, kite-boat
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 30 times
Been thanked: 21 times

Re: How important is the weight of your bar and lines for light wind foiling?

Postby Regis-de-giens » Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:33 pm

Thin lines (at rear lines at least ) helps to reduce the bending of the lines when fully depowered. When wind is really low (say below 5-6), smaller diameter leads to less curvature and less "permanent" pull-in on the kite. It allows to have it fly toward zenith with less need to grab and pump the front lines. Hard to put figures on it since back-to-back test is almost impossible, but theory is so clear on this ! And you can see that bending/curvature of the rear line is in detriment of low AoA for zenith, efficient loop and amplitude of bar command.

Should I really have to estimate figures, i would say it is less than 0.5 knots of difference (which is already a lot in marginal winds), but it could save one kite in the water so hours of wiming+drying+ untangling, so why not use this thin lines ? :-)
However thin lines are harder to untangle if it happends..

jyka
Medium Poster
Posts: 131
Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:38 pm
Kiting since: 2012
Style: freestyle
Gear: mixed set
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: How important is the weight of your bar and lines for light wind foiling?

Postby jyka » Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:36 am

When you're flying kite at 12:00 o'clock, the kite have to carry the weight of the bar and lines. If the wind is marginal and kite is barely flying, there must be a difference if the bar is half kilograms lighter..
The difference is smaller when the kite is flying closer to the water, when most of the bar weight is carried by your harness.

slowboat
Frequent Poster
Posts: 432
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:55 pm
Kiting since: 2000
Style: wave foiling
Gear: This and that
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 49 times
Been thanked: 36 times

Re: How important is the weight of your bar and lines for light wind foiling?

Postby slowboat » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:52 am

jyka wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:36 am
When you're flying kite at 12:00 o'clock, the kite have to carry the weight of the bar and lines. If the wind is marginal and kite is barely flying, there must be a difference if the bar is half kilograms lighter..
The difference is smaller when the kite is flying closer to the water, when most of the bar weight is carried by your harness.
No, the kite does not carry the weight of the bar. YOU carry the weight of the bar. People like the idea of these fancy carbon bars....and they are nice but no functional difference.
Last edited by slowboat on Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
These users thanked the author slowboat for the post:
Peter_Frank (Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:52 am)
Rating: 10%


Return to “Hydrofoil”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests

cron