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Foilers - do you still "surf" surf?

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Peter_Frank
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Re: Foilers - do you still "surf" surf?

Postby Peter_Frank » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:13 pm

pikovsg wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:37 pm
OP here. Thanks for all the responses, still processing :)
By surfing waves I mean do you prefer kite foilsurf or kitesurboard

Even when the question is put that simple, I still have to answer in a different way :roll:

For me, and many I believe, it is not a question about one or another - as they are not only two extremely different "sports" I imagine most of us love, they are also mutual exlusive (almost), meaning not spot on in the same conditions.

When I can ride smaller than an 8 m2 on my waveboard, I need a 4 m2 and smaller on a surf foil, meaning, that is the only small range where one could do both, and none are in their sweetspot really :wink:

BUT, in reality, when wind is onshore waveboards sucks bigtime, and a foil with a 3 to 4 m2 kite a lot more fun.
When the wind is really okay pretty sideshore, and 7 m2 or smaller for waveboards, you REALLY enjoy this, as in most spots it does not happen every day...
Besides the fact, that most dont have such small kites, AND, they dont behave as well as bigger kites 5 m2 and up, IMO.

Also, a bit more onshore actually works better in waves with a hydrofoil is my experience, so again, mutally exclusive conditions.

If I had conditions suited for both (almost impossible), I would not choose one over another, but change for the variety.

Guess we all know that we are out on waveboards in okay but not perfect conditions, and thinking we would love to be on our surf foils instead.
AND, the opposite, having foiled a lot, and wishing we had better waves and out on our waveboards instead ha haa :rollgrin:

If I could only choose one, it had to be foiling, but primarily because of its much wider range in many conditions, except severe seaweed where it is useless.
Otherwise, if both at their sweetspot, it does not matter which really :thumb:

8) Peter

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Re: Foilers - do you still "surf" surf?

Postby slowboat » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:02 pm

NYKiter wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:30 pm
Foils will never off the lip and drop straight down the face.....nothing compares to real surfing in my mind....
why do you say "never"?

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Re: Foilers - do you still "surf" surf?

Postby juandesooka » Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:11 am

slowboat wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:02 pm
NYKiter wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:30 pm
Foils will never off the lip and drop straight down the face.....nothing compares to real surfing in my mind....
why do you say "never"?
Funny to try and define what is "real surfing" vs what isn't ... humans have been body surfing for probably 10,000 years, then someone got a chunk of wood and realized it helped catch longer waves. Then polynesians stood up on huge planks and used their foot as a fin. And on it goes until Simon Anderson invented the thruster in 1980 and to lots of people, that's when real surfing started and that's where the story ends -- the nearly 40 years since is just variations on what a "real" surfboard looks like.

This also negates what porpoises and dolphins do in waves, riding directly within the waves power ... and I'd suggest their wave riding is a lot more "real surfing" than us gangly bipeds riding a chattering board on the surface and inefficiently shooting spray. A foil taps into that same power zone, which is why surf foils can ride swells that are not even remotely possible with any surfboard, even a 14' SUP.

But I can argue the other way too, as a long-time surfer I totally get the purist side and I also fully understand the surfer's attitude towards the intense kookiness that comes out of the kite and foil communities. I have a foot in all three camps, though I've yet to wear shorts over my wetsuit, so my fall from grace isn't fully complete.

Getting back to your point though: I think you will definitely see foil riders going down the line and carving up the wave with a top to bottom style, as the gear progresses and the riders learn to use it. Though I suspect you won't see the buckets of spray, without any board on the surface. But maybe surf foilers will figure out how to momentarily touch down at the top, to lay that spray, then back up on the foil to rip down the line. For progression, consider that straight airs in surfing were impossible without straps not very long ago, and now look what those youngsters are getting up to. :thumb:

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Re: Foilers - do you still "surf" surf?

Postby OzBungy » Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:09 am

NYKiter wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:30 pm
... drop straight down the face.....nothing compares to real surfing in my mind....
My foil does that all the time. I search out exactly those conditions. It seriously gets my heart pumping.

I doubt if I do a true off the lip. I went for one yesterday and ended up doing a back roll kite loop in the shore break. Not good.

In terms of the original question, I live 5 minutes from a bay beach. I will always foil if the conditions are doable. So far "doable" means wind 8-45 knots and sloppy wind swell up to 2m.

The nearest surf is an hour away. I surf if I am down the coast and conditions are favourable. If there is no wind and decent uncrowded surf then I make the drive.

Yesterday I did a 200m body drag wth foil off the beach to get out through a shore break.

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Re: Foilers - do you still "surf" surf?

Postby pikovsg » Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:57 am

OP here again. Quite a big gamut of responses here. I'll briefly sum up what a lot of you have said:

- most of you still do both (kitefoil surf and kitesurf), but you still do each depending on time/conditions are right
- most of you will pick kite foilsurf as the one thing because you either like it better or it allows for more sessions

- best conditions for kitefoil surf - onshore to slight sideshore wind, dinky to messy waves, waves 4ft or less, 8m and up conditions
- best conditions for kitesurf (kiting with a surfboard) - clean breaking waves, sideshore or offshore with 10 sec or more break, lit on 8m and less

- all of you say kitesurfing sucks in onshore
- all fo you say foiling sucks when weeds

- few of you kitefoil surf bigger waves (5ft +), esp. breaking waves
- few of you kitefoil surf because of life changes - family, less time, getting older

- kitesurf foil can't – 1) waveride reverse 2) truly spray the lip and 3) go down the line of a big AND largely vertical breaker
- kite surfboard can't – 1) ride small waves as well as foil 2) feel smaller waves as well as foil 3) ride onshore as well as foil

Would you say that's accurate?


Personally, I'm a total beginner at kitesurfing and don't feel like I can honestly compare the two.
But, I'm relatively decent at kitefoiling. By that I mean I can enjoyably kitefoil bigger waves from top to bottom & back and can add different aerials/transitions while in waves. That said, what I was originally hoping to figure out from those of you who like or do both, is wether we can blur the lines b/n what's possible on a surfboard and foil. Is it possible to blur the lines? Is it worth blurring those lines? If you do blur the lines, can the sensation on foil be the same? Also, wanted to find from the kitesurf diehards if the kitefoil surfing thing is swinging you over.

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Re: Foilers - do you still "surf" surf?

Postby juandesooka » Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:29 am

Blur the lines. Sure. Bring both to the beach. Rig for the one you want to ride more, then change to the other if wind increases or decreases, rather than re rigging. Bring twin tip too and do some jumps. Many sessions I end up using all 3, different experiences, and the cross training actually helps each too. I find lots of foil time makes me feel lighter foot on surfboard.

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Re: Foilers - do you still "surf" surf?

Postby jumptheshark » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:30 am

juandesooka wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:29 am
Blur the lines. Sure. Bring both to the beach. Rig for the one you want to ride more, then change to the other if wind increases or decreases, rather than re rigging. Bring twin tip too and do some jumps. Many sessions I end up using all 3, different experiences, and the cross training actually helps each too. I find lots of foil time makes me feel lighter foot on surfboard.
Agreed, and it feels very much like blurring the lines when one style influences the other. It's been a while, but last year I definitely remember that the balance sensitivity of foiling really improved the efficiency of how I rode my surfboard. Made me enjoy my surfboard a bit more as I was riding it from its optimal stance instead of accepting the bouncy inefficiency of just riding it from where I wanted to stand. The board just feels so much nicer when its balanced, and I used to ride it too much from the tail. Foiling taught me to better feel the board trim so now I only ever get back onto the tail pad when actually on a wave. For all other riding Im way further forward with a narrower stance. Feels much nicer and motors upwind better.

Foiling also has had a pretty big impact on my kite flying, which in turn has influenced both surfboard and TT riding. For one, I loop the kite so much more than ever before. In general, my kite piloting skills went way up from all the really light wind riding, and in turn your reaction time and skill when it comes to outrunning the kite or kite recovery from stall is just better.

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Re: Foilers - do you still "surf" surf?

Postby tomtom » Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:53 pm

dont you have wobble ankles on SB after HF? I always do and it takes me like 10 minutes to adjust. SB to HF no problem. HF to SB always wobble ankles - like speed wobble on skateboard...

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Re: Foilers - do you still "surf" surf?

Postby joekitetime » Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:50 pm

I've short board surfed all my life, then started windsurfing until I got good enough to ride waves on a windsurfer, then started kiting and very soon was riding waves on a kiteboard and kite, then started foiling. (simply put, only background info)... I also spent years skating halfpipes and streetskating, wakeboarding, supping, rafting... etc...

For me, the question is like asking "what is better, snowboarding or surfing"... Makes no sense in that regard. It depends!

Everything I do is "surfing". Meaning, ride, get speed, do manuever, albiet airs, grinds, floaters, vertical, ollie, whatever. And everyone else I see is in the same boat. As so many have said, different conditions make for different riding "vehicles" or styles on a particular day.

Skating in the rain sucks. Kiting in gusty crappy winds isn't fun. Paddle surfing in slop is terrible. But on those same days, switch "vehicles" and voila, something is fun. Landboarding is fun when the wind is light, sometimes, till you crash hard.

Sandboarding is loads of fun (on the way down). Hiking is brutal.

Conclusion: buy one of those sweet big sprinter style vans, fill it with toys and loved ones, throw in a dog, call in sick, then head to some water for some fun! Unless it is super cold, then head up the mountains! If the snow is no good ride back down on your kayak and drysuit!
These users thanked the author joekitetime for the post (total 3):
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Re: Foilers - do you still "surf" surf?

Postby matth » Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:53 pm

Whatever makes you happy, I'm just learning to HF but I doubt I will ever drop into a breaking wave on a HF. No one has mentioned the danger factor, getting rolled on a HF in the surf is a major concern I would think... :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:


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