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Advice needed for new foil board

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DAnderson
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Re: Advice needed for new foil board

Postby DAnderson » Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:36 pm

Also ~85kg & pretty happy w/ the red T38 all 'round.
At this weight, I wouldn't consider the 3''6 dc a light-wind board(also have the standard model). Powered & instantly on foil is a different matter, inconsistent w/ my definition of light winds.

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Re: Advice needed for new foil board

Postby joekitetime » Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:08 pm

Not too long ago I went out on a day with wind showing 8 mph or so, light, and I put up my new (old) 12m Naish Trip. I must have down looped the kite 10-20 times just to get to the water. It was a real pain to keep the kite in the air. I swam out / and down looped until getting to deep enough water to ride. I happened to be riding my 633 wing, although I could have / should have elected to go with a bigger wing - but it was hot and I was too lazy to swap wings. But, I was also on my dwarf craft 2020 strapless micro. First dive I stood up, no foil, sent the kite back while board underwater (a trick we learned in the windsurfing days was that you can ride your board under water or on top of the water, it doesn't know the difference), then second dive I was off and foiling. Easy peasy from there on and the day allowed me to work on downlooping jibes, on foil, and it was very pleasant, quiet foiling in glassy water.

However, in the meantime, another guy, let's just say his name is Marcus (well, because it is), had a 15m (I think) race foil kite and full on race foil/board. He went out, dove the kite, and was off in the blink of an eye, easily foiling well over 20kts of boat speed and doing circles around me and laughing. The difference in our boat speeds was like a kid on a trike and a road racer speeding around on a fast road bike.

The conclusion for me: powerful kite and fast wings create the massive apparent wind and boat speed. Slow foils work (and I was content with that style of riding) but the slow foil kept the apparent windspeed pretty low, almost regardless of kite size/pull (you reach a point of diminishing returns with kite size because at some point the foil will really not go any faster).

Kite matters, foils matters, but the board is just a place to park your feet.

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Re: Advice needed for new foil board

Postby Flyboy » Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:41 pm

joekitetime wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:08 pm
Not too long ago I went out on a day with wind showing 8 mph or so, light, and I put up my new (old) 12m Naish Trip. I must have down looped the kite 10-20 times just to get to the water. It was a real pain to keep the kite in the air. I swam out / and down looped until getting to deep enough water to ride. I happened to be riding my 633 wing, although I could have / should have elected to go with a bigger wing - but it was hot and I was too lazy to swap wings. But, I was also on my dwarf craft 2020 strapless micro. First dive I stood up, no foil, sent the kite back while board underwater (a trick we learned in the windsurfing days was that you can ride your board under water or on top of the water, it doesn't know the difference), then second dive I was off and foiling. Easy peasy from there on and the day allowed me to work on downlooping jibes, on foil, and it was very pleasant, quiet foiling in glassy water.

However, in the meantime, another guy, let's just say his name is Marcus (well, because it is), had a 15m (I think) race foil kite and full on race foil/board. He went out, dove the kite, and was off in the blink of an eye, easily foiling well over 20kts of boat speed and doing circles around me and laughing. The difference in our boat speeds was like a kid on a trike and a road racer speeding around on a fast road bike.

The conclusion for me: powerful kite and fast wings create the massive apparent wind and boat speed. Slow foils work (and I was content with that style of riding) but the slow foil kept the apparent windspeed pretty low, almost regardless of kite size/pull (you reach a point of diminishing returns with kite size because at some point the foil will really not go any faster).

Kite matters, foils matters, but the board is just a place to park your feet.
Yeah - I think you're right. Fast foil, powerful, efficient kite = fast foiling in light winds. However, race boards ARE large & floaty, & there must be a reason for that. Part of the issue for me is that I would like to teach my daughter to foil. The 4'6" DWC is a perfect board for learning IMO. I'm worried that the 3'6" will be too challenging ... I think the micro would definitely be asking too much.

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Re: Advice needed for new foil board

Postby joekitetime » Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:01 pm

Completely agree that foiling in light wind is different than teaching/learning. I am all for a big floaty board to learn to foil, with a super short (15" until you are just sick of the thing - ride it for weeks!) and medium size foil (not to big, not too small, and dull!). But, the question I was entertaining wasn't teaching, but rather light wind foiling and the board's function. I would never try to teach someone on a pocket board. They'd quit before they learned!

Regarding "big" race boards. The guys I watch do not use the flotation of the board when starting. They use the size/length for balance. The only time I see them using that board flotation is if they drop off foil when tacking. But again, that is another topic and doesn't pertain to light wind. They use that flotation in strong winds when correcting for a botched tack (at least that is my observation).

I actually have a race board that I've ridden a few times and have hated the thing. It did make it easier to get up to speed to get a more race wing on a foil which I liked. But once on a foil I felt like I was fighting the board the whole time. I still haven't figured that out.

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Re: Advice needed for new foil board

Postby purdyd » Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:39 pm

If you are learning, I think the either small dwarfcraft is too small.

If you are getting up on the foil on the downstroke, the board really doesn’t matter and I would pick the the lightest board as I think it is easier to get up on the foil with a lighter board as I can pump it coming up.

If you get up on the board with the downstroke and up on plane with the upstroke it is relatively easy the micro.

I can recover from coming off foil from starting or transitioning. It isn’t always pretty.

The race boards seem to be narrow and a bit longer and thicker. The thickness probably due to the Tuttle box. I don’t imagine volume does anything for getting going in race as if you aren’t powered up when racing you aren’t going to win much.

Honestly, the dwarfcraft micro area and volume is not the limiting factor in how light of wind I can foil in. And I am comparing to the alien air.

Had you told me this a month ago I would have laughed at you.

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Re: Advice needed for new foil board

Postby TomW » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:15 pm

Joe, it's the kite.

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Re: Advice needed for new foil board

Postby Flyboy » Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:58 am

All interesting. The reality is, it's hard to know any of this stuff without personal experience. Foiling seems totally unlikely to start with & it's natural to bring pre-conceptions based on other kiting experience to it. In a short space of time foiling has gone from being mostly a speed orientated, high performance activity to something significantly different. The wings have got much bigger ... & the boards have got much smaller.

I just noticed that the 2019 SS Micro has the track significantly further forward than the regular 3'6" DWC. I can see this might be a serious problem for the usefulness of the 2019 Micro. Both 2020 DWCs have the track further back than the 2019 Micro & the 2019 3'6" DWC, so obviously it was recognized that this was a problem.

I'll have to see how I get on coaching my daughter on the 3'6". :shout:
Could be tough, but I'm thinking, given the right conditions & some patience, might work out ... :-?

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Re: Advice needed for new foil board

Postby joekitetime » Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:07 pm

Flyboy wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:58 am


I'll have to see how I get on coaching my daughter on the 3'6". :shout:
Could be tough, but I'm thinking, given the right conditions & some patience, might work out ... :-?
Don't do it! I'm my dream world if I were to teach my daughter(s) my "hope" would be to get a small sup board equipped with a medium sized foil on a 15" mast, assuming she knows how to kite! If not I'd get the same setup behind a jetski or boat. It is pretty easy to stand up on a sup behind a boat and if you have a foil, the slight leaning back "should" bring the board up on a foil. Huge board, medium wing.

The downside to this setup is that it is only good for the first day, in my opinion. Although ideally you'd force a student to ride this setup for a week.

Anyway, I don't know your particulars but learning to trust and ride the wing without the aid of the board initially is disastrous in my opinion. And, I came of this opinion thru lots of blood, sweat, tears, and a handful of brand new swear words (and have witnessed it in many others!)

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Re: Advice needed for new foil board

Postby Flyboy » Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:50 pm

joekitetime wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:07 pm
Flyboy wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:58 am


I'll have to see how I get on coaching my daughter on the 3'6". :shout:
Could be tough, but I'm thinking, given the right conditions & some patience, might work out ... :-?
Don't do it! I'm my dream world if I were to teach my daughter(s) my "hope" would be to get a small sup board equipped with a medium sized foil on a 15" mast, assuming she knows how to kite! If not I'd get the same setup behind a jetski or boat. It is pretty easy to stand up on a sup behind a boat and if you have a foil, the slight leaning back "should" bring the board up on a foil. Huge board, medium wing.

The downside to this setup is that it is only good for the first day, in my opinion. Although ideally you'd force a student to ride this setup for a week.

Anyway, I don't know your particulars but learning to trust and ride the wing without the aid of the board initially is disastrous in my opinion. And, I came of this opinion thru lots of blood, sweat, tears, and a handful of brand new swear words (and have witnessed it in many others!)
Not going to happen. I will be in the Caribbean, steady side shore wind, flat water, uncrowded & 4 weeks to work on it. But no possibility to use a sup board, a jetski or anything like that. In my own experience, I found trolling along on the surface was not helpful at all - I only made progress when I committed to the foil & popped up on the wing. Of course, a lot of wipe outs for the first few sessions, but she's 40 years younger than me ... so she has that advantage!


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