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is it that easy to splice my own lines, SK99 600kg or-

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Macster
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Re: is it that easy to splice my own lines, SK99 600kg or-

Postby Macster » Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:44 am

OzBungy wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:51 am
To my knowledge there is no such thing as a single or double brummel splice. There are two ways of doing a brummel splice (pass the loop through or pass the tail through) but the end result is the same.

You could measure the lines straight, then mark your brummel splices back from the cut ends and finish up with two lines the same length. That's not the same as making lines to a specific length, or making a new line to match an existing completed line.

I find that the slightest variation in inserting the fid or cutting the taper results in variations in completed length. It is much easier to simply slide a splice until it is the exact same length as its partner.
Look at locked brummel and also look at how people use a texter on the line to mark the precise loop size and line length. These are two solutions to your issues raised over the last two comments.
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Re: is it that easy to splice my own lines, SK99 600kg or-

Postby Herman » Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:08 am

Imho brummels have their use but are not worth the loss in strength in flying lines. (I am told a rope company found test specimens on synthetic ropes broke at the lock. Stitched splices were stronger.)

Many new flying lines are easy to splice with a little bit of experience. Used flying line can be extremely difficult and sometimes impossible without infinite patience needed to loosen the braid evenly. With the nature of flying line use imho low load tail slippage is not a huge issue and only a small amount of loose stitching is required. ( It is the larks head that is taking the load, arguably the tail could be left dangling in fresh air! For me the extra insurance of a brummell is unnecessary but you may prefer to have it. )

If you are going to use a brummell for a pigtail:

It is rarely necessary to use the inversion method to make the brummell lock. Imho it is even better to pass a spliced end through than disrupt the fibres with an inversion in the line.

Obviously people are riding around on set ups that are based on different conclusions and that demonstrates that it is not super critical with the actual working loads. Perhaps another endless thread!!

(Dipping the nose of a home made wire needle into resin plus sanding can help you tune it so that it is less likely to escape the core for fine work. Also the ease with which you can pass your needle through the core will be indicative of how easy it will be to splice, and you can test this before cutting the line - use a test section away from the actual splice area.)
Last edited by Herman on Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:25 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: is it that easy to splice my own lines, SK99 600kg or-

Postby Foil » Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:59 am

wow, so glad I put this question on the forum, thanks everyone.
it has helped picking the best tips, and there are many listed above, I will practice a bit first as well.
The only thing I am not sure about yet is my lines which are the standard ozone ones from the V4 bar, one line has a stop ball sewn in as the bar stop when the safety is fired off,
in the last video he mentions what to do if you don't have both ends free, and this is a case in point with the ball in the way,
any info on this or a video showing someone doing this looping back through the line he mentions, in the last video he glossed over it which for me was a little confusing.

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Re: is it that easy to splice my own lines, SK99 600kg or-

Postby Herman » Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:17 am

Foil

If I have understood correctly this would only be a problem if you have decided to use a brummell.

Basically there are variations of two methods to create the brummell lock. One where you have access to both ends, the other where you only have one end free. As you have a ball on the line you would have to use the latter which puts a temporary inversion in the line as in Gunnar's excellent demo ( although there are better ways of tapering imho ).

Personally I would not use a brummell for simplicity and the reasons I gave above but if you prefer to use a brummell that is ok as well. How was your needle test? Do you know how to use splicing tape? Marlows website would probably be worth a look.

Regards Herman.
Last edited by Herman on Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:38 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: is it that easy to splice my own lines, SK99 600kg or-

Postby OzBungy » Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:35 pm

Macster wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:44 am
OzBungy wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:51 am
To my knowledge there is no such thing as a single or double brummel splice. There are two ways of doing a brummel splice (pass the loop through or pass the tail through) but the end result is the same.

You could measure the lines straight, then mark your brummel splices back from the cut ends and finish up with two lines the same length. That's not the same as making lines to a specific length, or making a new line to match an existing completed line.

I find that the slightest variation in inserting the fid or cutting the taper results in variations in completed length. It is much easier to simply slide a splice until it is the exact same length as its partner.
Look at locked brummel and also look at how people use a texter on the line to mark the precise loop size and line length. These are two solutions to your issues raised over the last two comments.
There is only one kind of brummel splice. There are two ways to do it. Brummel splices are locked. That is what makes them brummel splices. There is no such thing as a brummel splice that is not locked.

The use of texta pen is irrelevant. Yes you can measure and mark the two dots down from the cut ends of the line and make your brummel splice and end up with two lines the same length. But, if you are a little off on passing through each of the dots, and cut your taper a little differently you can end up with a fairly significant difference.

There is no way you can have a completed line with loops and make a brummel and get it to be exactly the same length as the existing line. There is no way you can make a line to a specific length. In theory you could work out the amount of length consumed in making a brummel and add that to your measurements and come fairly close. Good luck with that.

With a simple eye splice you can make a line and adjust it to precisely the length you want. A few hand or machine stitches and the job is done.

Yes there are applications for brummel splices but precision and accuracy is not one of them. No kite or paraglider bridle has ever come out of the factory with a brummel splice. I am amazed people would choose to mess around with brummel splices because they don't want to put a few stitches in some line. :roll:

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Re: is it that easy to splice my own lines, SK99 600kg or-

Postby edt » Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:17 pm

Let him do the brummel if he wants. He'll figure out soon enough how hard it is to get the line lengths right.

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Re: is it that easy to splice my own lines, SK99 600kg or-

Postby jumptheshark » Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:22 pm

edt wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:17 pm
Let him do the brummel if he wants. He'll figure out soon enough how hard it is to get the line lengths right.
Thank god pigtails only have a loop at one end and an easily adjustable knot at the other.
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Re: is it that easy to splice my own lines, SK99 600kg or-

Postby chibern » Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:15 pm

OzBungy wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:35 pm
Yes there are applications for brummel splices but precision and accuracy is not one of them. No kite or paraglider bridle has ever come out of the factory with a brummel splice. I am amazed people would choose to mess around with brummel splices because they don't want to put a few stitches in some line. :roll:
What do the factories that make line sets use? The loops on my Cabrinha lines are not all sewn/covered loops and the loops that aren't look like brummel splices to me.

I'm guessing line sets are usually made in a factory by hand at a breakneck pace with everything pre-measured, marked, cut and spliced in bulk. I can't imagine they are individually adjusting each line to match.

I've seen lots of videos of how kites are made in the factory - anybody have one that shows how line sets are made? Probably not very exciting though...

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Re: is it that easy to splice my own lines, SK99 600kg or-

Postby Jfactor » Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:00 pm

Getting brummels the same length is NOT hard. I've done countless sets with brummels, never without issues. The key to this is cutting all of the lines to the same length, and marking the line where you want the loop to fold. Once you do this, its easy to adjust the loop slightly right before you lock it. Since all of the lines were cut to the same length, the shrinking that occurs due to bury will all be identical.
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Re: is it that easy to splice my own lines, SK99 600kg or-

Postby tomtom » Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:30 pm

Brummel is virtually identical in strength than long bury - this is many times confirmed by lots of independent measurement. Long bury is very slightly stronger but both made splice which is stronger than line rated strength. There are two brummel type - normal /which require free line end/ and inverted which doesnt not. Normal look esthetically better - strenght is same. I use both types acording situation.

Foil, you look like handy man, please ignore all comments that its hard, complicated and it require 20 attempts. You must do 1 or 2 practice run and after that you are fine.
It is much easier than make perfect finish on wings and I actually enjoy messing with lines.
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