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High aspect wings for kite foiling

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stevez
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High aspect wings for kite foiling

Postby stevez » Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:09 am

Who's tried high aspect surf foils for kite foiling?
Specifically for riding waves. Wings such as the signature foil, gofoil GL, axis 900/1000 etc.
Please share your experience and/or opinions.

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Kamikuza
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Re: High aspect wings for kite foiling

Postby Kamikuza » Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:05 pm

stevez wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 12:09 am
Who's tried high aspect surf foils for kite foiling?
Specifically for riding waves. Wings such as the signature foil, gofoil GL, axis 900/1000 etc.
Please share your experience and/or opinions.
I've the Axis 720 and 820 wings, and on FB HF groups, Adrian keeps telling me it's firewood and the 900 is the best thing ever :lol: However, he's not alone in that assessment -- everyone who uses it raves about it. Hopefully I'll get a demo in February ... long wait though :(

I've ridden wings with similar area to my 820 but lower aspect (Naish, Cabrinha) but they don't have the glide time and stability of mine, especially at low speeds. Maybe I'm just used to that...
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chirojoseph
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Re: High aspect wings for kite foiling

Postby chirojoseph » Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:35 pm

BUMP BUMP....

Kamikuza seems to be the only guy writing about KITING with the Axis Sseries setup in 2019...theres gotta be some others out there!! Im going to annex a post of questions I JUST made over at Seabreeze

" finally have decided to ASK if anybody can COMPARE the SSHOT infinity 76 foil (which ive been riding exclusively for a year now) experience with the AXIS Sseries 680 ??

Im very aware the the INfinity has 1530 square cm compared to the 1120 square cm of the AXIS 680...however Im also aware that the Axis is a thinner, potentially higher aspect wing and perhaps more efficient even at low speeds than its "square cm area" might suggest??

Definately do NOT want to give up the incredible low end and "pumpability" of the SSHOT 76 so I was HOPING that someone who has ridden BOTH these wings might give their 2 cents?? I assume that the Axis 680 has a higher top end (as Kamikuza has pointed out that he can ride 19 knots of speed on the 820 (impressive) but really wondering about its LOW end and the pumpability/carviness compared to the SSHot76.

Another question (while im at it) is anybody JUMPING while kiting the Axis 680? The reason im leaning towards AXIS (among others) is the apparent bomber connections between wing, fuse, mast...but I wonder if anyone is really putting that to the test by BOOSTING occasionally with this wing? My goal is 90 percent wave riding but ONCE in a while, if riding straps, its still nice to booost and have a birds eye view of the waves wouldnt ya agree?? jejeje...

Lastly, I notice that Axis on their webpage is promoting the Sseries 680 with the EXTRA SHORT FUSE for turny and playful and surfy feel. For those who use this foil on SUP foil for paddling OR WINGSURF....would you think that the EXTRA SHORT FUSE would still work fine for this application? I can imagine a LONGER fuse would be more desireable for stability for complete begginner...but is it also NECESSARY if using the foil with a SUP or could one get away with the Extra Short Fuse as well? Perhaps the other length FUSES will be phased out by AXIS next year?"

Thanx in advance and GOOD WINDS!!

KyroJoe in Mexico

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Re: High aspect wings for kite foiling

Postby jumptheshark » Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:53 pm

I'm just posting for fun, no exp with high aspect wings, but what I can get behind theory wise is that the higher aspect you go, the larger radius turns your going to get.

You can probably get amazing low end out of the high aspect wings you see the top wing surfers using now, or the people pumping away from dock starts, but it comes at a cost.

When power is not at such a premium (read: you have a kite), I would rather have a wing with the area to allow for slow flight, but also low enough aspect, or wingspan to allow for tight carves.

For kiting, I'm of the thought that you want reasonable area ie. 800-1500 square cm depending on your weight with a relatively thin profile to maintain decent speed. Power... that comes from the kite so it's not (imho) quite so important to have that ultra efficiency. The thinking being I would rather the better carving than the ultra long glide, as the glide on a lower aspect thin profile wing is already great.

Can I ask why you want that level of efficiency? and maybe what your prepared to give up for it?

Profile it the other big parameter where thicker mean more lift at lower speeds, but it comes at the cost of drag hence lower top end. I can see this being something pure wave riders are happy to favour as they may not want excess speed.

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Re: High aspect wings for kite foiling

Postby Kamikuza » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:32 pm

It occurs to me to ask: what do you consider high aspect? The 900 is higher then the 820...

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Re: High aspect wings for kite foiling

Postby Dave K » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:52 am

jumptheshark wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:53 pm
I'm just posting for fun, no exp with high aspect wings, but what I can get behind theory wise is that the higher aspect you go, the larger radius turns your going to get.
Might want to rethink that “high aspect always means large radius turn” concept.
Video of Derek Hamasaki using a GL 180 and getting amazingly tight wave carves. With straps he’ll almost pivot the wing around when he wants to,.....and then pump and glide like there’s a power booster on his foil. Efficient and fast turning at the same time!

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Re: High aspect wings for kite foiling

Postby cor » Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:56 am

What a confusing thread. Aspect ratio is defined by Wingspan x Wingspan / Wingarea. A typical surfwing is very LOW aspect with a big wing area, not high aspect.

Low Aspect with bigger wing area: Lower lift speed, Higher maneuverability, Higher stability (this is what you want in the waves)
High Aspect with smaller wing area: higher lift speed, speed orientated, better Upwind Performance, less stable (this is what you want when you want to race or go big)

Dave K wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:52 am
Might want to rethink that “high aspect always means large radius turn” concept.
[comment removed. I was wrong]
Last edited by cor on Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: High aspect wings for kite foiling

Postby Peter_Frank » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:41 am

jumptheshark wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:53 pm
I'm just posting for fun, no exp with high aspect wings, but what I can get behind theory wise is that the higher aspect you go, the larger radius turns your going to get.

You can probably get amazing low end out of the high aspect wings you see the top wing surfers using now, or the people pumping away from dock starts, but it comes at a cost.

When power is not at such a premium (read: you have a kite), I would rather have a wing with the area to allow for slow flight, but also low enough aspect, or wingspan to allow for tight carves.

For kiting, I'm of the thought that you want reasonable area ie. 800-1500 square cm depending on your weight with a relatively thin profile to maintain decent speed. Power... that comes from the kite so it's not (imho) quite so important to have that ultra efficiency. The thinking being I would rather the better carving than the ultra long glide, as the glide on a lower aspect thin profile wing is already great.

Can I ask why you want that level of efficiency? and maybe what your prepared to give up for it?

Profile it the other big parameter where thicker mean more lift at lower speeds, but it comes at the cost of drag hence lower top end. I can see this being something pure wave riders are happy to favour as they may not want excess speed.

Higher aspect wings got more lift than the same profile and area with lower AR.
Quite significantly in fact, because we operate at such low ARs.

Apart from the obvious, better glide ratio thus a lot better upwind angles.

They tend to feel more "hard" so to speak, because they dont stall softly like lower AR wings.

In terms of turning, when big, it is "odd" and what might confuse many :roll:

The high AR big wings can turn really tight when you have initiated the turn - I dont think there is any significant difference.

This is why it is fun riding a big wing in marginal winds as it can turn pretty narrow, which is also necessary in marginal wind when jibing.

BUT, there is a but, if you take a similar sized or even a bigger wing, with less span, it can initiate the turn SOOOO much better/faster.
It simply feels and is a lot more lively, you can turn from one side to the other (what we on surfboards or windsurfers call rail to rail transitions) really fast and easy, feels good.

Also when just riding straight, or on a wave, that you can "wiggle" the foil from side to side with blistering speed, is so much fun compared to the high span wings.
Maybe not very useful, but fun and it illustrates how big the difference is in turn initiation, based on wing span mostly.

Good riders can turn fast on anything, dont let you be fooled by that - there ARE big differences in how they turn, low and high span wings.

And indeed we see higher AR wings, bigger span and big area, for wingfoil and surffoil and SUPfoil especially, nowadays.

8) Peter

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Re: High aspect wings for kite foiling

Postby slowboat » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:59 am

cor wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:56 am
What a confusing thread. Aspect ratio is defined by Wingspan x Wingspan / Wingarea. A typical surfwing is very LOW aspect with a big wing area, not high aspect.

Low Aspect with bigger wing area: Lower lift speed, Higher maneuverability, Higher stability (this is what you want in the waves)
High Aspect with smaller wing area: higher lift speed, speed orientated, better Upwind Performance, less stable (this is what you want when you want to race or go big)

Dave K wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:52 am
Might want to rethink that “high aspect always means large radius turn” concept.
No. The wing in the video is very LOW aspect (because a High Aspect Wing with small wing area does not work with a SUP as the lift speed is too high).
I think the question is about wings that have bigger SA than race wings but higher AR than the currently popular wings like the 633, Lift 170, etc. You are incorrect about the wing used in the video above. If it is the GL 180, it is a HIGH AR wing. I don't know the specs but just Google a picture of it.

In the video above, the rider is turning the GL 180 pretty tightly but that doesn't negate the correct statement that higher AR wings are harder to turn. These are all relative terms. Harder to turn (compared to a low AR wing) but not impossible to turn tightly, especially at lower speeds.

Kiters have become very comfortable with the low AR, big "surf" wings but I do believe as we try some higher AR wings, they will become more popular. You trade that loose quick turning wing for better glide, lift and more roll stability

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Re: High aspect wings for kite foiling

Postby cor » Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:12 am

slowboat wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:59 am
I think the question is about wings that have bigger SA than race wings but higher AR than the currently popular wings like the 633, Lift 170, etc. You are incorrect about the wing used in the video above. If it is the GL 180, it is a HIGH AR wing. I don't know the specs but just Google a picture of it.
You are right. It was an assumption and I didn't read the description of the video.


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