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backstall on smaller kites

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tomtom
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Re: backstall on smaller kites

Postby tomtom » Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:31 pm

Just ride more with small kites :)

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Re: backstall on smaller kites

Postby juandesooka » Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:36 pm

jakemoore wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:01 pm
Consider also some small kites are designed for nuclear wind and I have had one in particular that flew like a turkey in hydeofoil or kid kitevoarding strength winds.
I have an Ocean Rodeo Prodigy 5m. Rest of quiver is OR Roams. The small kite is super fun at 30kt+, but below that it has erratic flying behaviour with back stalling. My solution has been to not use it sub-25ish. However, I don't tend to fly tiny kites when foiling, I am usually just one size below the surfboard riders.

Buddy just got a SST 4m and has been blown away by its stability, even in lighter winds. So some of this may be about higher aspect kites that like to fly forward in the window vs lower aspect wave kites that have more drift capability. That's the end of my technical knowledge and interest, eyes glaze over beyond that. :lol:
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Re: backstall on smaller kites

Postby Flyboy » Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:12 am

Yes, it's interesting how you need to relearn kite control for foiling. There's generally very little pull in the kite. but there's still an optimal position/sheeting for the kite. However, that position/sheeting is totally different from what it would be on a TT or SB.

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Re: backstall on smaller kites

Postby tomtom » Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:42 am

I don't think that sheeting itself /on kite side/ is very different but certainly bar ergonomic is - at least for me. I need fly kite on HF maybe 15 cm more powered so my optimal hand position is 15 cm further up than on SB/TT. Bar close to body on HF is big NO GO for me - i almost cannot ride that way. Trimmed that way i can back stall so much that i have kite landing and reverse launching accessible on bar. So for me ergonomics is what dictate bar trim and not backstall less bar setup. I think every body on HF will benefit from very different ergonomics - than SB/TT setup - and this is what make big perceived difference. Bar close to body means much less feeling and precision for kite on HF and it strongly limit your possibility to isolate your body moment from kite flying.

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Re: backstall on smaller kites

Postby jakemoore » Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:05 pm

juandesooka wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:36 pm
jakemoore wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:01 pm
Consider also some small kites are designed for nuclear wind and I have had one in particular that flew like a turkey in hydeofoil or kid kitevoarding strength winds.
That's the end of my technical knowledge and interest, eyes glaze over beyond that. :lol:
Yeah I think you just gotta try the kite. Or get a review from somebody who is relevant to your riding. Both the kite we did not like and the one we chose were low mid aspect tube kites.

The one I had that was a no go would only turn if it was backstalling in 20 knot winds. Maybe in 30-40 it would be good? Not relevant for me because I bought it for my son primarily and for hydrofoil as well.

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Re: backstall on smaller kites

Postby joekitetime » Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:04 pm

I haven't read all the comments, but the first thing I noticed when I started foiling was how often all of my kites would stall and fly backwards. From 5m to 12m. Came from years of 2 line, C kites and liking tons of bar pressure. Took many suggestions from this forum, one being to "slacken" the steering lines such that I had no way to stall the kite when the bar was sheeted in all the way. That was a huge help.

I've been kiting since 1999 and thought I had really good kite skills - that is until I started foiling. Then I learned that I really didn't have great skills.

But after foiling for a year those skills have improved.

Stalling the kite is operator error, and it is exacerbated by the high speed of the foil (boat speed). Set up your bar such that you can't oversheet the kite, keep the kite moving forward and learn how to keep the kite from going dead (which is what happens when you head straight at the kite which slackens the lines.)

It'll come and it is a ton of fun!

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Re: backstall on smaller kites

Postby Flyboy » Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:44 pm

I get the back stalling thing, which with my kites is only really a problem when water starting the foil - theres' a tendency to hang off the bar in an effort to get up on the foil - not a good strategy. It's actually very like what a TT beginner does when they're trying to water start - rather than dropping the kite into the power zone & committing to the speed & pull of the kite they try & pull themselves up onto the board using the back lines.

When underway on the foil at speed there's almost no bar pressure, especially bearing off or sliding down a wave. It's nothing like "normal" kiting at all, so yeah, the kite is very sheeted out. The only time there's bar pressure - pressure on the back lines - is tracking upwind, especially when you're fairly powered.

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Re: backstall on smaller kites

Postby Peter_Frank » Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:02 pm

jakemoore wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:05 pm
juandesooka wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:36 pm
jakemoore wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:01 pm
Consider also some small kites are designed for nuclear wind and I have had one in particular that flew like a turkey in hydeofoil or kid kitevoarding strength winds.
That's the end of my technical knowledge and interest, eyes glaze over beyond that. :lol:
Yeah I think you just gotta try the kite. Or get a review from somebody who is relevant to your riding. Both the kite we did not like and the one we chose were low mid aspect tube kites.

The one I had that was a no go would only turn if it was backstalling in 20 knot winds. Maybe in 30-40 it would be good? Not relevant for me because I bought it for my son primarily and for hydrofoil as well.

I think this is very wrong :roll:

They are not designed specifically for high winds...
If some were, that was the last pile of sh.. kites I would stay away from for life, if they only worked in really high winds.

I have flown the 5 and 6 and 7 m2 kites in really low winds, when learning my "light" daughter to fly a kite, bodydrag, and later surf.
Apart from flying them myself, if the wind drops suddenlly, the kite gets wet, and I want to dry the kite in maybe 8-10 knots of wind, or only a few knots of wind, no problem, they fly just fine, in fact a lot easier to handle in superlight wind than bigger kites, they just dont pull sufficiently for riding.

Main difference is, the small kites are usually made in the same materials as the bigger ones, at least as the mediaum ones.

Meaning, they are lighter, so when flying in really low wind, despite having a higher "wingload" (weight/area), they are most often just as easy, well, in fact easier to fly in almost no wind, compared to the bigger kites.

Because of using the same materials normallhy, they are a bit stiffer in the frame.

This can be a downside in really light wind, as they frame/LE has to twist, to be able to waterrelaunch in low wind.

On the other hand, because they are smaller, they turn and loop fantastic, no matter how stiff, and as use in more wind, even on hydrofoils, we can often relaunch them quite easy despite being less flexible.
in particular as you can often reverse launch them really easy :D

So the easier backstall is simply because yo have a shorter stroke, and most riders are not used to riding small kites in low wind, so they have to re-learn this so to speak.

What about making kites with longer stroke with pulleys then?
Could be done, but as most of us actually love the short stroke both on surfboards or hydrofoils, so you can control everything with one hand easy, this is not the way to go IMO.

Learn to fly the small kites, thats it :thumb:
And those made with lighter fabrics, will of course turn and relaunch even better, but not be so hardcore for high winds and tumbling in big waves.
Thus brands usually make a compromise that works okay for both of course, makes it cheaper for us.

A few or one exception, say small BM Clouds for example, awesome for foiling but not spot on for waves or freestyle :wink:

8) Peter

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Re: backstall on smaller kites

Postby plummet » Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:29 pm

Like this?


Back stalling isnt a problem its a feature. If you Wrap your head around it and practice, practice. Once mastered you cab use the back stall method in various ways!
In the meantime don't be so ham fisting when pulling the bar in. Find the sweet spot and ride there if you dont want back stall.
Also, pull the trim in. You can trim out the back stall if need be. Personally, I set all my bars up with +4" of rear line tension so I evoke back stall sooner if need be.

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Re: backstall on smaller kites

Postby Flyboy » Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:35 pm

plummet wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:29 pm
Like this?


Back stalling isnt a problem its a feature. If you Wrap your head around it and practice, practice. Once mastered you cab use the back stall method in various ways!
In the meantime don't be so ham fisting when pulling the bar in. Find the sweet spot and ride there if you dont want back stall.
Also, pull the trim in. You can trim out the back stall if need be. Personally, I set all my bars up with +4" of rear line tension so I evoke back stall sooner if need be.
That's a bit like saying to a beginning kitesurfer: "kite looping isn't a problem it's a feature". :cool2:


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