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Frustrated with an NV in lightish wind and foiling, am I just bad?

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jumptheshark
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Re: Frustrated with an NV in lightish wind and foiling, am I just bad?

Postby jumptheshark » Sat Sep 28, 2019 12:50 am

I don’t think that kite was really designed for 10 knots let alone 10mph! It’s a 14-20 knot kite for most tt riders. You need really light kites to enjoy 10 knots. It’s gotta be designed for light wind. Heavy kites need constant line tension in light wind and drop the moment you head downwind. You need a really light lei or a foil. Strutless are great. They relaunch as well as anything if you have decent skill. there are loads of single strut kites out now.

I’m 175lbs 1100 square cm wing and can’t imagine getting anything bigger than a 10m Lei going forward.

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Re: Frustrated with an NV in lightish wind and foiling, am I just bad?

Postby Michaelr123 » Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:40 am

jumptheshark wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 12:50 am
I don’t think that kite was really designed for 10 knots let alone 10mph! It’s a 14-20 knot kite for most tt riders. You need really light kites to enjoy 10 knots. It’s gotta be designed for light wind. Heavy kites need constant line tension in light wind and drop the moment you head downwind. You need a really light lei or a foil. Strutless are great. They relaunch as well as anything if you have decent skill. there are loads of single strut kites out now.

I’m 175lbs 1100 square cm wing and can’t imagine getting anything bigger than a 10m Lei going forward.
That seems to line up with what I'm feeling, so I've been looking at gong more and more :D i think a 10m strutless could work great, and the reviews have been really positive as well. It should be a good kite even after I progress on the foil as well. thoughts?

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Re: Frustrated with an NV in lightish wind and foiling, am I just bad?

Postby grigorib » Sat Sep 28, 2019 3:29 am

Michaelr123 wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:40 am
jumptheshark wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 12:50 am
I don’t think that kite was really designed for 10 knots let alone 10mph! It’s a 14-20 knot kite for most tt riders. You need really light kites to enjoy 10 knots. It’s gotta be designed for light wind. Heavy kites need constant line tension in light wind and drop the moment you head downwind. You need a really light lei or a foil. Strutless are great. They relaunch as well as anything if you have decent skill. there are loads of single strut kites out now.

I’m 175lbs 1100 square cm wing and can’t imagine getting anything bigger than a 10m Lei going forward.
That seems to line up with what I'm feeling, so I've been looking at gong more and more :D i think a 10m strutless could work great, and the reviews have been really positive as well. It should be a good kite even after I progress on the foil as well. thoughts?
Don’t do strutless. They’re messed up in a different way.

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Re: Frustrated with an NV in lightish wind and foiling, am I just bad?

Postby tmcfarla » Sat Sep 28, 2019 3:44 am

10 knots with a regular tube kite is tricky, at least it is for me. Strutless definitely hang in less wind, but they dont give significantly more pull- so a 10m strutless still pulls like a 10m kite. It will stay up in less wind, and through lulls though. In my experience (older clouds only) strutless can relaunch in super light wind if there are no waves, and can into a real struggle in any wind if there are waves. If you are in a flat water/light wind spot they can be really nice. All that said, if you are commited to kiting in honest 10 knot winds, you should probably be looking at foil kites. 12-13 knots are where tubes start being fun for me on a foil board. I don’t have any foil kites any more,I just don’t bother with really light stuff (I also haven’t used a modern foil kite though). So no, nothing wrong with you or your NVs, they just aren’t really light wind foiling kites. I found them fun in moderate wind.

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Re: Frustrated with an NV in lightish wind and foiling, am I just bad?

Postby wheat » Sat Sep 28, 2019 5:13 am

Michael, you are in a great spot. You are also in a tricky spot.
I am, also, a midwest kiter out of Kansas. I imagine our winds might be similar.
I am 190 lbs and on a SS/Moses 633 surf foil.
I was struggling with my TT kites dropping out of the sky in a inland lake lull. (10m and 12m Ozone Catalyst)
I picked up a 12m Gong Strutless V2. The V3 is the current model. I am enjoying the low end grunt to get up and the driftability. This summer, our low winds haven't been consistent. I think the kite would be happiest in 9-13 knots. Our days have seemed to be 12 with 18+ knots and I am getting overpowered. When overpowered, I am shooting straight upwind or drifting downwind. The kite has more flapping than I would like. Usually, I can trim it out with pointing higher and sheeting in a bit. At about 15 knots, I am jumping to a much smaller kite.
I would keep the 10m gong on the consideration list. It would be a very usable size.

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Re: Frustrated with an NV in lightish wind and foiling, am I just bad?

Postby Michaelr123 » Sat Sep 28, 2019 2:30 pm

grigorib wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 3:29 am
Michaelr123 wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:40 am
jumptheshark wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 12:50 am
I don’t think that kite was really designed for 10 knots let alone 10mph! It’s a 14-20 knot kite for most tt riders. You need really light kites to enjoy 10 knots. It’s gotta be designed for light wind. Heavy kites need constant line tension in light wind and drop the moment you head downwind. You need a really light lei or a foil. Strutless are great. They relaunch as well as anything if you have decent skill. there are loads of single strut kites out now.

I’m 175lbs 1100 square cm wing and can’t imagine getting anything bigger than a 10m Lei going forward.
That seems to line up with what I'm feeling, so I've been looking at gong more and more :D i think a 10m strutless could work great, and the reviews have been really positive as well. It should be a good kite even after I progress on the foil as well. thoughts?
Don’t do strutless. They’re messed up in a different way.

Are you talking about strutless in general? Or gong kites? They also make a one strut which people like alot as well.

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Re: Frustrated with an NV in lightish wind and foiling, am I just bad?

Postby Michaelr123 » Sat Sep 28, 2019 2:40 pm

tmcfarla wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 3:44 am
10 knots with a regular tube kite is tricky, at least it is for me. Strutless definitely hang in less wind, but they dont give significantly more pull- so a 10m strutless still pulls like a 10m kite. It will stay up in less wind, and through lulls though. In my experience (older clouds only) strutless can relaunch in super light wind if there are no waves, and can into a real struggle in any wind if there are waves. If you are in a flat water/light wind spot they can be really nice. All that said, if you are commited to kiting in honest 10 knot winds, you should probably be looking at foil kites. 12-13 knots are where tubes start being fun for me on a foil board. I don’t have any foil kites any more,I just don’t bother with really light stuff (I also haven’t used a modern foil kite though). So no, nothing wrong with you or your NVs, they just aren’t really light wind foiling kites. I found them fun in moderate wind.
I would love to, unfortunately our little tiny parks are not conducive to foil kites. We do a lot of drift launches as well.

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Re: Frustrated with an NV in lightish wind and foiling, am I just bad?

Postby jumptheshark » Sat Sep 28, 2019 3:06 pm

I think strutless kites are great, but understand that they are not to everyone's taste. I do think the majority of kiters are pretty conservative with their tastes and the concept is just too much for those unwilling to put in a little time to learn the skills that make them work. Here are my thoughts on who they might suit.

They are super fun in their lower wind range because they are agile and drift off the wind well. They luff when shooting forward so they really don't overfly and pretty much never hindenburg. They flap a little, but it really didn't take me long to get over that. Some people are practically OCD about flapping. Once your over it, you just are. Relaunch is a plus and a minus. I find for a large percentage of relaunches, be it light wind or just a ditch, turn and relaunch, they are better than strutted kites. They are flexible so the one wingtip will pull the kite around and up faster than a more rigid kite. They can get challenging whey your really mess it up and get them spun around or water on top of the canopy, but like so many kite skills, there is technique to getting the canopy to catch wind, clear and relaunch that works well for those who learn it. They don't have a lot of lift, so jumping is not a strong suit. They don't point upwind like a high aspect foil, and top end speed is no where near a high aspect foil. They can be unruly in their top end especially if its gusty. They are generally best as the smaller kites out on the water. The bigger you go with a strutless kite, the worse the downsides become. The smaller you go the better they are comparatively as they just don't need the extra structure.

If your the kind of foiler who does a lot of circles, carving downwind, swell riding, loop your kite a lot and just generally fly your kite around the window a lot, are on a bigger lower aspect foil, are not into jumping high, and are open to the idea that you have to learn a few nuances, you owe it to yourself to try one.

If you foil with a lot of power, cover a lot of distance, keep your kite relatively static while foiling, have a high aspect foil, want to jump with straps and get some hang time, they might not be to your taste.

When people bash them, you really have to consider that there are also many foilers out there that will never opt for traditional kites again. They are significantly different in the riding experience from both traditional kites and foil kites and its subjective.

I am really interested in trying any of the purpose built light kites hitting the market. one strut, gong, peak, concept air. I'm open to trying all of em. Aluula is another interesting avenue in my mind. I want as small a kite I can get decent power from, the faster it turns the better, but I don't want the absolute smallest kite any more, and don't really like to be "underpowered" , more like properly powered with some real juice on tap, but also the ability to shut it OFF. I also want a kite with some decent lift for softening landings. So far that is still a strutless in the 10 and under sizes.
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Re: Frustrated with an NV in lightish wind and foiling, am I just bad?

Postby Peter_Frank » Sat Sep 28, 2019 3:42 pm

Your "problem" is very normal so to speak.

First off, you are still new into foiling, so handling kites in winds around and below 10 knots is something you have to learn.
Also, use longer lines as Grigorib correctly adviced you.

Secondly, you are not alone, for the average weight experienced foiler, a 10 m2 can go down to 8-9 knots, on todays medium to bigger wings.
But you also need a light kite in this wind.

So a "more normal" 12 m2 is too big and clumsy and heavy to hang in winds around 7 to 9 knots, where it could be used once you keep it up.
In fact a 10 m2 same weight is just as easy to keep flying, and usually got the same powerspike.

This is why most dont have a normal 12 m2, as it will not work well or at all in these winds, so many stick to something around a 10 m2 which works fine in 9-11 knots no problems dont even have to be superlight, just not too normal heavy.

And as you want few kites I somewhat understand, you will ride your 12 m2 in quite high winds too I presume, thus a strutless or onestrut might not be the best choice.

As otherwise, if you want the best LEI for the job, you should use a superlight 12 m2 for 7-8 knots, light 10 m2 for 8-9 knots, and then you can use your normal kites 9 m2 and smaller for 10 knots and up, in 10 knots EVERYTHING can fly easy.
Maybe not relaunch, but should not matter when experienced :naughty:
Only in marginal winds below 7 knots, you need a light foilkite, even a normal foilkite is totally useless in this wind.

Strutless kites are perfect for light wind, but if you only want few kites to cover a higher range, you need strut(s), to avoid the flapping.
As simple as that.

And having one or more struts, AND being a light kite, limits your choices extremely, so you either have to find these and maybe even pay a bit more, or use other kites and dont ride in wind below 10 knots.

Having said all of above, you should consider the winds to be the "lower ends" that some of us like.
Others ride in much more wind for their personal sweetspots, with the same kitesizes (if same weights).
And beginners usually the first two years when learning, also ride with bigger kites in this period.

8) Peter
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Re: Frustrated with an NV in lightish wind and foiling, am I just bad?

Postby Michaelr123 » Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:35 pm

Really good points from both of you guys. I'm not planning on getting rid of my nv, the 17 turbine might end up out of my quiver, we'll see. I think a 15 is probably more reasonable for me, but it still enjoy cruising on my door board and surfboard. I'm really looking at adding 2 kites to the quiver at this point, as I don't have anything for high winds, or what most would call good winds, but that kite should be different from this lightwind foiling kite that I'm looking at. I'm trying to avoid getting a 12 and a 10/9 m lightwind kite at this point because I'm going to run out of storage space for all these kites :D


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