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kite loop radius for gybe to toe

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neilhapgood
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kite loop radius for gybe to toe

Postby neilhapgood » Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:44 pm

Hi folks,

so I am consistently getting round gybing from heel to toe and foiling all the way through but struggling to keep as much tension in the lines as I would like.

I am quickly realising that the timing of the loop seems to be important as if I loop too soon I go flying downwind and too late the lines go slack, I am wondering about a couple of things

1 - high high to place the kite before you turn, do you start with the kite really high and go for a tight loop so its not pulling so hard across the window or have a wider and/or lower loop, or does it depend on kite size etc!

2 - At the point at which the kite is pulling through the window do you need to be almost on the other tack and ready to lean hard into it as it pulls, I wonder if I am too slow going round so can't use the pull of the kite to carve a bit harder as I seem to be wobbling around with the kite drifting downwind then just catch it in time!

Make sense?!

Thanks

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jumptheshark
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Re: kite loop radius for gybe to toe

Postby jumptheshark » Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:59 pm

Follow your kite. Wind strength and carve radius generally dictate what your going to do with the kite, but following your kite is pretty consistent throughout all transition types*. Just like wave riders following their kite through turns on a wave, foiling is generally a follow your kite style of riding. If the gybe is going to be a tight button hook style so you don't lose downwind ground, the kite has to do a quick tight little loop. If your doing a longer more downwind carve the kite should be just ahead of you the whole way to maintain relative position and downwind rate of travel in order to maintain roughly consistent line tension.

Disconnects between kite path and pace with rider path and pace result in getting yanked off the board either forward into the movement, or backward toward a kite that has lagged behind.

* foiling is funny, and once you master the rules, you can often flaunt them a bit. Some people can purposefully disconnect the riding path from the kite path and add a 360 here or there with either the board or the kite without keeping either in lock step. Same thing with pace. There are plenty riders who can delay or rush either the kite or the board in order to place a hit or drop of power at a certain moment, but they all initially learned the gybe and tack with the kite and board in lock step both for path and pace with the kite leading the dance.
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joekitetime (Fri Oct 25, 2019 3:12 pm) • neilhapgood (Fri Oct 25, 2019 3:16 pm)
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Re: kite loop radius for gybe to toe

Postby joekitetime » Fri Oct 25, 2019 3:23 pm

Jump the shark has some really good points. Last year was my first season foiling and I can say that I spent the entire season obsessing on exactly the dilemma you posed in your question. I'll say that after maybe a season of riding you will probably get good enough to where it becomes super easy, as easy and thoughtless as driving, and very automatic.

For me, I use several techniques to help me come around. Sometimes I drop the kite all the way down to the water, then rip it up and over in the other direction. I nearly try to touch the water with my kite before I rip it around. And I try to let the kite pull me around. This works when I'm going really slowly flying a big wing.

But you hit a point that no matter what you do you can't keep tension in the lines. This happens for me on a faster wing and in lighter winds. Hence, the downloop transition your inquired about. When I'm overpowered somewhat it is a lot easier to initiate. I fly the kite high then dive it down thru the downloop and modulate the kite's pull by how hard I come around or bear off at the kite. Sometimes when super overpowered I fly straight downwind until I can get control of the speed. On the other hand, when the wind is lighter sometimes I outrun the kite so much that my speed and momentum pull the kite thru the downloop because it is stalling.

It took me about a season for me to not have to think about it anymore or obsess over it. Now I spend my time watching the swell, looking at the water and not the kite, to pick the best lines, or possibly anticipate turning again immediately for a rinse and repeat.

Like most things in kiting, timing seems to be everything. Also, as you get better at it, you will be less prone to have the kite dictate your lines and pull, but rather you can focus on the board riding and weighting and carving and you will be in charge of the kite, rather than the kite being in charge of you.

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Re: kite loop radius for gybe to toe

Postby purdyd » Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:02 pm

If you are getting too much slack in the lines, you might be taking too wide of a turn.

You control your power with the turn of the board, head downwind to reduce power and upwind to increase.

You. Should be able to ease back into the power by controlling your path and sheeting.

I’m like start kite high in light and very heavy winds. Both of which I am likely to be sheeting out during the turn. In light wind you don’t want to stall the kite, and heavy wind, you don’t want to get yanked too much.

That means a little wider loop in those conditions. I think in light wind you want to be smooth so a nice big wide arc and smooth tight turn. Heavy wind could be a wider loop with a wider turn.

When it is really light, it might even be more of a pivot turn and waiting longer to start turning the board.

Get in the sweet spot with wind and you can do any combo you want.

I think it was a good point, above as you get better your timing is not as critical as you can stay up on foil longer without pull.

The basics of down loop gybe is really the same for twintips and directionals. Practicing on those boards might help.

Good luck!

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jumptheshark
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Re: kite loop radius for gybe to toe

Postby jumptheshark » Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:45 pm

joekitetime wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 3:23 pm

It took me about a season for me to not have to think about it anymore or obsess over it. Now I spend my time watching the swell, looking at the water and not the kite, to pick the best lines, or possibly anticipate turning again immediately for a rinse and repeat.

Like most things in kiting, timing seems to be everything. Also, as you get better at it, you will be less prone to have the kite dictate your lines and pull, but rather you can focus on the board riding and weighting and carving and you will be in charge of the kite, rather than the kite being in charge of you.

Absolutely. This is the essence of small fast kite foiling in fun terrain. Keeping your eye on the terrain and keeping your brain ahead of the kite so you can drive it through said terrain to facilitate the lines your want to ride. Most of the riding is pre planned and sort of already rehearsed with the kites. I see a lip forming, pivot my kite over it so that I can hammer it when it hits full bloom. When the terrain is truly great, you really get into the synchronicity of playing kite with terrain and following through with the art of riding. The kite does the blue print of the move and you flesh it out to the fullest with the foil. The foil can break free for bits and so can the kite, but its like dancing in that you really have to bring em back together with the right timing to make it all flow.

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Re: kite loop radius for gybe to toe

Postby tomtom » Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:23 pm

All that being said + one other technique that racers using /gmb13 credit/.

Leave kite where is it - do nothing with kite - initiate turn /just you not kite/ and ride about 1/2 in to turn. Only then downloop your kite - which will very nicely catch you in end of turn without yank.
Point is you leave kite on edge where is really stable and as you go from kite you actually tighten lines. If you initiate movement with kite you go to the kite and slacken lines.

other advice - use Peak 4 in midle to strong wind. No matter what i do i wasn't able collapse kite or made it unresponsible. It is many times better than LEI or closed cell foil kite /in this regard/.
Actually is so much better that im worrying that my kite skills will rusting.

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Re: kite loop radius for gybe to toe

Postby chibern » Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:29 pm

As a beginner foiler, I'm always having to remind myself "turn the kite first" and "follow the kite".

Heel-to-toe, down loops seem easier to complete without worrying about dropping the kite than "up and overs" but I have issues once I'm through the turn. I'm always getting pulled downwind for a ways before being able to turn back up wind. I don't have this issue when gybing with an "up and over" kite movement but I have to concentrate more on kite positioning.

I tend to loop it high and tight.

Going toe-to-heel gybe, the down loop is easier regarding kite movement but more awkward to initiate. Doing a toe-to-heel using "Up and over", I always seem to have to do a mid-turn kite dive to keep from dropping the kite especially on my weak side.

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Re: kite loop radius for gybe to toe

Postby chibern » Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:36 pm

tomtom wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:23 pm
Leave kite where is it - do nothing with kite - initiate turn /just you not kite/ and ride about 1/2 in to turn. Only then downloop your kite - which will very nicely catch you in end of turn without yank.
Point is you leave kite on edge where is really stable and as you go from kite you actually tighten lines. If you initiate movement with kite you go to the kite and slacken lines
I have done this a couple times by accident when something happens and I find myself going the opposite way the kite is pointing. I've pulled hard on a steering line and am amazed that I am able to save it. It's actually weird how long you have to recover from this sometimes.

Haven't worked up to doing it on purpose yet, though :D

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Re: kite loop radius for gybe to toe

Postby Peter_Frank » Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:37 pm

chibern wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 6:29 pm
As a beginner foiler, I'm always having to remind myself "turn the kite first" and "follow the kite".

Heel-to-toe, down loops seem easier to complete without worrying about dropping the kite than "up and overs" but I have issues once I'm through the turn. I'm always getting pulled downwind for a ways before being able to turn back up wind. I don't have this issue when gybing with an "up and over" kite movement but I have to concentrate more on kite positioning.

I tend to loop it high and tight.

Going toe-to-heel gybe, the down loop is easier regarding kite movement but more awkward to initiate. Doing a toe-to-heel using "Up and over", I always seem to have to do a mid-turn kite dive to keep from dropping the kite especially on my weak side.

Well, I disagree with the "follow the kite" that others advice...
A lot in fact :wink:

This works well (for some, not in waves always) on "traction" boards, meaning TTs and Waveboards that gets dragged on the surface and has loads of friction, thus requires a lot bigger kite or more wind relative to the boardspeed, and dont go downwind much in the turn.

With a hydrofoil, you have to turn coordinated with the kite, NOT follow the kite.

If you follow the kite, you will end up with no power mid turn or at the end of the turn :o

When doing downloops, you have to turn some before you loop the kite, if going REALLY fast downwind, to avoid slack lines.
If a normal carve, it is not that important...

Flying the kite up, which is by far my preference, you have to initiate the turn, having the kite quite low, simultaneously while flying the kite up.

The whole idea is not to get the kite in front of you, but keep tension on the lines all the way, AND, having the kite high and on its way down on the new tack, so it gives power perfectly and you dont risk losing speed, nor to get the kite so low that you risk getting it in the drink, or lose power if out in marginal wind.

Timing is everything, and I am able to make an uploop foiling carve in less wind than a downloop carve I think, and less risky.

In normal winds, yes what you experience chibern is pretty normal, you can not make a tight carve when downlooping, and you end up going fast on the way out almost or out of control if going beam reach as we prefer, which is most often NOT what you want as a freerider, but perfect as a racer going deep.

8) Peter

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Re: kite loop radius for gybe to toe

Postby Frankieboy » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:04 pm

I also disagree with the "follow the kite" idea.

It works when powerded like on a SB or TT but not when underpowered like we usually do foilingAND combined with more speed going downwind.

What works with the downloop also works when sending the kite up and turning when it goes down again. Even with slack lines the kite will go forward (in this case from up to down)

So my advice is to send the kite before engaging the turn, send it but the long way, going quite high, and get some tension back in the lines when the kite flyes back down.


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