Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

kite loop radius for gybe to toe

A forum dedicated to Hydrofoil riders
User avatar
gmb13
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1482
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:19 am
Kiting since: 1999
Local Beach: Flag Beach, Fuerteventura
Style: Everything
Gear: Ozone, Axis, Moses, Zeeko, Firewire, SBS
Brand Affiliation: Foiling Basics, The Boardroom Fuerteventura, Ozone, Axiskiteboarding,Schwerelosigkite, Triggernaut,
Location: Fuerteventura
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 59 times
Contact:

Re: kite loop radius for gybe to toe

Postby gmb13 » Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:00 pm

purdyd wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:14 pm
f you send the kite before you initiate turning the board, the lines go slack and the kite stalls, especially in lighter winds or with small kites.
This seems completely backwards to me. In light winds with a small kite I have to start the kite turning well before the board turns.

I’m talking about a small inflatable kite. Say 6m on 22m lines in 12 mph average wind speed.

Do you have any videos of what you are saying? Maybe I will learn something but maybe we aren’t comparing the same thing?

Are you talking about racing? You mentioned a 21m kite on short lines.

I found a nice video you made on Vimeo. Looks like a down loop gybe at 1:20

. https://vimeo.com/160464796

That looks pretty normal to me but for some reason you cut the complete turn. You also have a lot of speed and make a pretty wide turn because of it. So you can start the downloop as you turn the board which is what it looks like to me in that video.
No It is 100% right. Especially with a small inflatable kite in light winds. In the video you cannot see the kite, but you can see from the lines, that I pretty much do a 180 before the kite redirects into the side of the wind window.

It does not matter if I am talking about racing on short lines or about a tube kite on long lines. Correct techique is correct technique. With a 21m Kite on short lines however, bad technique gets punished instantly.

Here is some of the "physics" behind why you need to turn the board first.

1) If you redirect the kite first, either in a a downloop or turning the kite up you put the kite straight into the middle of the wind window. This gives you an extremly short period of time to get the nose of the board to go from pointing across the wind in your original direction of travel to the new direction without going straight downwind.

2) If your timing is just slightly off, the board will head straight downwind towards the kite as it is diving down, this will slack the lines and the kite will fall out of the sky in light winds or stop steering. You can usually hear and see this from guys who turn the kite first as the kite stalls mid turn and in really light winds will hindenburg and if lucky you can just recover the kite before it hits the water. It might work, but that does not make it the right way of doing it.

3) If you turn the board past 90deg (straight downwind) before you pull the kite into the loop the board will be heading in the new direction and you will keep tension on the lines.

I will try to make a video where this will be very clear as soon as we get some decent conditions to film it.

Here are some examples.

Here I turn the kite first. Watch how it stalls.


It may be kneeling down, but it is still a gybe. Not how late the Kite redirects/loops.



Here is an example with an 18m Foil Kite on long lines in almost no wind. Even thought I start to turn the kite a little before the board goes around (bad technique on my part) I only pull hard to redirect once I am almost 80% the way around:



--
Gunnar

User avatar
jumptheshark
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 893
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:36 pm
Kiting since: 0
Local Beach: Shhhhh
Favorite Beaches: Nude
Gear: The good stuff
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 91 times
Been thanked: 190 times

Re: kite loop radius for gybe to toe

Postby jumptheshark » Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:19 pm

Maybe there is enough difference between set ups that we are speaking different languages. I have a hard time imagining what its like to use a 21m kite on short lines.

It dawned on me when reading the quote above. I can see how you "could" 180 your kite, let it get turned all the way around until it's pointed into the middle of the window and then slack line by turning downwind toward it, but I just thought we were all smart enough to understand that the goal is to maintain line tension. Throwing it across the top of the window is the easiest, but a loop works pretty well too. I never send my kite right dead downwind unless its NUKING and it can handle the drift. I just figured people could feel line tension and knew to send their kite across the top of the window or loop it in a manner than it doesn't stop, flying forward ergo producing lift across the zenith, maintaining line tension until both kite and board are comfortably on the new tack.

I use an 8m and can throw it around in all kinds of space. Most simply when going heel to toe in light or heavy wind, I edge the kite upwind on the old tack to build line tension. Then just before it gets too close to the edge and still has decent pull, I redirect it up and back across the top of the window and follow immediately and DIRECTLY onto the new tack. To be honest, letting it get so far ahead that I slack line is exactly what I'm trying to avoid by following it so closely. It is my most simple and reliable transition and it maintains line tension in light wind. Now of course I can do it really tight like a little button hook, but I didn't always do it well. Like everyone else I had to slowly figure out how to shift kinetic energy to the kite and back to suit our relative positioning. I made big improvements when I locked my timing into the kite. In fact it lead to one of the most rewarding parts of the learning curve, where figuring out how to follow the kite as to maintain line tension by concentrating on the pace and timing opened up ALL the transitions, gybe and tack. Now of course I can do any manner of arc with board and kite, but the fundamental aspect of flying the kite to keep line tension is the still a basic requirement.

Maybe its totally different with bigger foil kites or racing hydrofoils, but I most def lead most of my riding with the kite.

User avatar
gmb13
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1482
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:19 am
Kiting since: 1999
Local Beach: Flag Beach, Fuerteventura
Style: Everything
Gear: Ozone, Axis, Moses, Zeeko, Firewire, SBS
Brand Affiliation: Foiling Basics, The Boardroom Fuerteventura, Ozone, Axiskiteboarding,Schwerelosigkite, Triggernaut,
Location: Fuerteventura
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 59 times
Contact:

Re: kite loop radius for gybe to toe

Postby gmb13 » Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:37 pm

jumptheshark wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:19 pm
Maybe there is enough difference between set ups that we are speaking different languages. I have a hard time imagining what its like to use a 21m kite on short lines.

It dawned on me when reading the quote above. I can see how you "could" 180 your kite, let it get turned all the way around until it's pointed into the middle of the window and then slack line by turning downwind toward it, but I just thought we were all smart enough to understand that the goal is to maintain line tension. Throwing it across the top of the window is the easiest, but a loop works pretty well too. I never send my kite right dead downwind unless its NUKING and it can handle the drift. I just figured people could feel line tension and knew to send their kite across the top of the window or loop it in a manner than it doesn't stop, flying forward ergo producing lift across the zenith, maintaining line tension until both kite and board are comfortably on the new tack.

I use an 8m and can throw it around in all kinds of space. Most simply when going heel to toe in light or heavy wind, I edge the kite upwind on the old tack to build line tension. Then just before it gets too close to the edge and still has decent pull, I redirect it up and back across the top of the window and follow immediately and DIRECTLY onto the new tack. To be honest, letting it get so far ahead that I slack line is exactly what I'm trying to avoid by following it so closely. It is my most simple and reliable transition and it maintains line tension in light wind. Now of course I can do it really tight like a little button hook, but I didn't always do it well. Like everyone else I had to slowly figure out how to shift kinetic energy to the kite and back to suit our relative positioning. I made big improvements when I locked my timing into the kite. In fact it lead to one of the most rewarding parts of the learning curve, where figuring out how to follow the kite as to maintain line tension by concentrating on the pace and timing opened up ALL the transitions, gybe and tack. Now of course I can do any manner of arc with board and kite, but the fundamental aspect of flying the kite to keep line tension is the still a basic requirement.

Maybe its totally different with bigger foil kites or racing hydrofoils, but I most def lead most of my riding with the kite.
Ok I understand what your logic is now. You ignored or didn't understand the OP and you also do not understand what is happening with your kite when you edge it all the way to the window and then turn it up. The OP is talking about looping the kite to gybe. You are talking about slamming the kite to the edge of the window and then carving the board hard around. It works, but carries a lot of risk and does not work with every kite setup. The correct way works with every kite, foil and line length.

Basically your kite and board technique of edging out the kite will almost to the same thing as then turning the board first when doing a gybe with a loop, just with added risk if you get your timing wrong. I am 100% sure that if you closely watch a video of yourself you will see that your kite is following your kite and not the other way around.

--
Gunnar

User avatar
jumptheshark
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 893
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:36 pm
Kiting since: 0
Local Beach: Shhhhh
Favorite Beaches: Nude
Gear: The good stuff
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 91 times
Been thanked: 190 times

Re: kite loop radius for gybe to toe

Postby jumptheshark » Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:23 am

Maybe.

I get what you mean, but I guess I just don't ride like that at all.

I also get what Im doing when I edge my kite out. Im loading it up to get it through the stall moment you mention. You do a series of gybe turns starting at 3:18 in that clip. It looks like the kite leads the whole way. It only really has a stall moment on the first one, the rest look to me like what I'm yammering on about.

The button hook gybe is not my advice to the OP! That's just my personal fall back gybe, my chicken gybe when I need to turn quick and get outa there. Its just an example where Im pretty sure I am leading the gybe mechanics exaggeratedly with the kite. Not just that gybe put pretty much every gybe, or tack or 360 or cutback, or whatever. I think I lead almost all my riding with the kite. Across different boards and conditions too. It's more a basic principle of kiting. The only time I lead the kite is between apex and landing. Maybe leading with the kite is not the right way to say it. How about planning ahead with the kite. Cmon, you ride a 21m, you gotta know what that's about! Kites are just slow. You have to tell em what to do ahead of doing anything and usually your still left waiting for them to get where you want. I can clearly see you using board speed to drag your kite into the first part of its run across the window. I definitely don't do that. If thats what OP wants. Cool cool. I though he wanted to get the wobble and slack out of his heel to toe gybe.

User avatar
cglazier
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2460
Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2002 1:00 am
Kiting since: 1999
Gear: Naish, Duotone, Flysurfer, Alpine
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 32 times

Re: kite loop radius for gybe to toe

Postby cglazier » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:50 am

Here is the Duotone Academy tutorial on the Foiling Gybe. They advise to start turning your kite and then carve your turn (at 2:30 and 3:08).
They also have two more basic gybing videos and again they say to steer your kite and then begin your turn.



;-) CG

User avatar
purdyd
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1240
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 1:00 am
Has thanked: 77 times
Been thanked: 52 times

Re: kite loop radius for gybe to toe

Postby purdyd » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:13 am

No It is 100% right. Especially with a small inflatable kite in light winds. In the video you cannot see the kite, but you can see from the lines, that I pretty much do a 180 before the kite redirects into the side of the wind window.
I think you are misunderstanding what I what I said. You start the downloop gybe with the kite first, when it is light.

That is what you did in the video I linked and that is what happens in the duotone video that was posted.

C4073AA9-EEEA-4B17-B0C0-5C9589DE60BE.png
I said nothing about the timing of the kite redirecting.

You stalled the kite in your sit down gybe because you didn’t turn your board quick enough and it got ahead of you.

If you are going to take a nice wide turn you need make a nice slow turn with the kite.

The problem with wide turns when it is light is you spend a lot of time heading straight down wind sucking the power out of the kite.

So a tight turn or even a pivot turn can keep more energy. And the thing about a quick turn, it is quick and your kite needs to be in position. The problem with kites and low wind, is they are slower.
3) If you turn the board past 90deg (straight downwind) before you pull the kite into the loop the board will be heading in the new direction and you will keep tension on the lines.
I’m not sure what you are defining as into the loop. Is that when the kite is at the top and you start the loop? Is it when it is heading down? Is is when it is redirected?

I think what we have here is a difference in terminology and visualization rather than a difference in execution.

windmaker
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1625
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2003 8:48 am
Kiting since: 1999
Local Beach: .
Style: Strapless surf and foil
Gear: F-One & Aeros kites/ HB surf/ Taaroa foil/ Manera
Has thanked: 13 times
Been thanked: 28 times
Contact:

Re: kite loop radius for gybe to toe

Postby windmaker » Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:59 am

cglazier wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:50 am
Here is the Duotone Academy tutorial on the Foiling Gybe. They advise to start turning your kite and then carve your turn (at 2:30 and 3:08).
They also have two more basic gybing videos and again they say to steer your kite and then begin your turn.
The confusion comes from the fact that because bigger kites react slower than boards, you need to anticipate and send the kite before turning the board BUT in practice, during the turn, to keep a good balance, the nose of the board is always pointing slightly ahead of the kites' leading edge

User avatar
Peter_Frank
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 9482
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 1:00 am
Kiting since: 0
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Denmark
Has thanked: 135 times
Been thanked: 147 times

Re: kite loop radius for gybe to toe

Postby Peter_Frank » Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:52 am

windmaker wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:59 am
cglazier wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:50 am
Here is the Duotone Academy tutorial on the Foiling Gybe. They advise to start turning your kite and then carve your turn (at 2:30 and 3:08).
They also have two more basic gybing videos and again they say to steer your kite and then begin your turn.

The confusion comes from the fact that because bigger kites react slower than boards, you need to anticipate and send the kite before turning the board BUT in practice, during the turn, to keep a good balance, the nose of the board is always pointing slightly ahead of the kites' leading edge

Exactly, we are not discussing when you begin to pull on the bar, only when the kite start turning compared to our board.

As we all begin pulling the bar a bit or long before the kite is expected to turn, depending on size and kitetype and load.

And if you turn the kite first, and then follow with the board, it can go really wrong in many situations.

Where it has to be synchronised most often, and sometimes you need to turn the board somewhat before, to keep tight lines, like when carving going fast downwind.

Yesterday when out I thought about this thread, and no doubt, I start turning the board while the kite is still going up, long before my kite starts going towards the new direction.


Think about it this way:

You go halfwind, nose of board pointing well to windward of the kite.
While carving your board goes downwind, and you change tack.
So on the new tack the nose of the board should be pointing well upwind of the kite again.

Meaning, during the carve your board nose has to "overtake" the kite so to speak, doesnt matter if you downloop or turn the kite up and around.

It can happen at the beginning of the turn, or mid turn, but doing it going out of the turn is most often not good as then you have a kite that pulls backwards, or at least sideways, for a while...
And on a hydrofoil it can end in a minor catastrophe often, as you will accelerate at the wrong time going dead downwind for an instant, and the kite is now on the new tack, so you get totally slack lines :o

And I think you want to turn the board early, in most situations, I do at least :D

8) Peter

Herman
Frequent Poster
Posts: 287
Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:09 pm
Kiting since: 0
Style: My Own.
Gear: SLE, foils and C kites, TTs, Directionals, Landboards, Buggy.
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 42 times
Been thanked: 58 times

Re: kite loop radius for gybe to toe

Postby Herman » Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:21 am

As an "I will get round to it one day", hydrofoiler I have been following this thread with interest. In other forms of riding I have 2 basic strategies for avoiding slack lines during a gybe.

1. Leave the kite where it is and turn the board. (If you never redirect the kite to catch up with you it can even be used as an emergency stop, useful on land.)

2. Kill the board speed before sending the kite across the window. (Downloop, low, low/high/dive, etc)

It seems to me that the discussion has largely been around the first strategy. However, I like the feel of heading up and slowing before a turn and then accelerating into the turn as the kite generates power crossing the window, just for the fun of it!

My question is: would the strategy of heading up to kill speed before sending the kite first still be useful (if I ever get to that stage) while hydrofoiling?

User avatar
Peter_Frank
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 9482
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 1:00 am
Kiting since: 0
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Denmark
Has thanked: 135 times
Been thanked: 147 times

Re: kite loop radius for gybe to toe

Postby Peter_Frank » Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:08 pm

Herman wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 11:21 am
As an "I will get round to it one day", hydrofoiler I have been following this thread with interest. In other forms of riding I have 2 basic strategies for avoiding slack lines during a gybe.

1. Leave the kite where it is and turn the board. (If you never redirect the kite to catch up with you it can even be used as an emergency stop, useful on land.)

2. Kill the board speed before sending the kite across the window. (Downloop, low, low/high/dive, etc)

It seems to me that the discussion has largely been around the first strategy. However, I like the feel of heading up and slowing before a turn and then accelerating into the turn as the kite generates power crossing the window, just for the fun of it!

My question is: would the strategy of heading up to kill speed before sending the kite first still be useful (if I ever get to that stage) while hydrofoiling?

Yes, #2 is a really good strategy, it is IMO the only way to jibe foiling in marginal winds, head high upwind at low speed, commit to the board turn while the kite flies around (down or up, I prefer up as less risk).

In just a tad more wind, one can also do it with good speed on a lower course, turn the board first, and let the kite follow next from up high - so you keep tight lines and the input to turn the kite will be MUCH faster now, used with downloops usually.

8) Peter


Return to “Hydrofoil”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: br44 and 4 guests

cron