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Thanks Peter I really like your analytical approach.

Regards Herman.

windmaker wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:59 am

you need to anticipate and send the kite before turning the board

What heresy is this?! Didn't you call BS on me for saying just that?

You Jedi's must be too advanced for us casuals to understand!!

Look, this isn't quite as complex as climate change, we should be able to get to a mutually agreeable explanation, or the OP is better off selling his kite and getting a wing!

Lets use Pete's example. Say your riding steady state exactly halfwind. The kite is always leading. Your vector is parallel to that of the kite just upwind of it. If there is a finish line perpendicular to your vector of travel (exactly up/down wind) the kite crosses first. If in this scenario, you leave the kite on course but initiate the gybe by carving the board downwind, your lines slack. Kites have some drift, but turn hard enough and you lose steering and drop your kite. You have to ANTICIPATE the drop in line tension and either climb or downloop the kite FIRST to make up for it.

Looking at the still from the Duotone clip, it's pretty clear. The kiter is riding in a straight line for roughly 9 frames. The kite only three. The kite clearly begins its climb into the arc of the downloop on the fourth frame.
Look, I said in my first post that foiling allows for disengagement of kite and board direction, but that simply confuses the issue. The convention stands that the kite still PULLS on the lines throughout the gybe, and the Gybe is generally initiated with kite input.

Dragging your kite into a low wind downloop using your speed and momentum is absolutely the exception, not the rule. Yes, you see it done this way with racers gybing while heading deep downwind and at the bottom mark, but racing is 1% of kiteboarding.

As evidence by our good friends at Duotone, it's not crazy advice to tell the OP to lead with the kite and follow it decisively through to the exit.

jumptheshark wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:25 pm

As evidence by our good friends at Duotone, it's not crazy advice to tell the OP to lead with the kite and follow it decisively through to the exit.

That’s how I learned to gybe — bearing upwind until now speed then sending kite back the other way (decisively) then following the kite as it pulled the other direction aka following the kite.

Or do you other guys mean pointing the board’s nose ahead of the kite?

Peter_Frank wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:52 am

Exactly, we are not discussing when you begin to pull on the bar, only when the kite start turning compared to our board.

As we all begin pulling the bar a bit or long before the kite is expected to turn, depending on size and kitetype and load.

Isn't this the crux of the confusion?

In my opinion we ARE discussing when you begin to pull the bar. I mean in practical terms kite input comes first. It's what you do in anticipation to mitigate losing line tension when you turn the board downwind to gybe.

YES, I get that racers can haul their kite into a turn to avoid a stall point, but racers do all kinds of weird things like ride straight lines right through beautifully formed swell!

I didn't pick up on the OP's intention to learn race techniques. I rather read he was looking at the radius of the loop in a downloop gybe from heel to toeside. Not how to max speed on the downwind leg of a race course or make the bottom mark as fast as possible. But like 99% of foilers, just looking for advice on how to make the most basic transition with a little more line tension.

But yes, perhaps I misunderstand. I though we were giving practical advice.

I think you are right - some of us talk about when we can see the kite turning, others talk about when you give the input to the bar, two completely different things, also dependant on many other factors (the delay)

nice 13 second video

Peter_Frank wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:39 pm

I think you are right - some of us talk about when we can see the kite turning, others talk about when you give the input to the bar, two completely different things, also dependant on many other factors (the delay)

Yes I think that is the misunderstanding here. But I think the more practical advice involves bar movement.

When the kite is slow because the wind is light and or the kite is large, I start with bar movement.

When the kite gets faster, I turn the board and move the bar at the same time.

When it gets even faster, I turn the board quicker to keep up with the kite. I have never considered delaying the kite.

We’ve all come out of turns faster than we went into them, which to me must be following the kite.

To get back to the kiteloop heel to toe gybe

Assuming have a suitable kite and wind you should be able to turn the board and start the loop at the same time. I always like pointing off wind when the kite starts to power in the loop as if you get too much power it will accelerate you toward the kite and reduce the power.

I control the kite power with the turn of the board and sheeting the kite. Tighten the turn to get more power, widen it to reduce power,

This might be what Bruno is eluding to, you need to start heading back the other way to ease power into the kite.

He probably sees a lot of students get behind the kite on the downloop turn

Although my observation and direct experience was I first tended to be in front of the kite on regular gybe due to lack of commitment, light winds and larger kites,

I am learning to gybe on foil and this thread has a lot of great info. If you look at Doutone frame photo, then you can see that kite is still points to the same direction up to frame #8, the kiter in frame #8 has finished the stance change and started carving in frame #8. Yes, the kite started the upward motion in frame #4, but the kite orientation hasn't changed until frame #8. It looks like the sequence is following:
1. Send the kite up (frame #3)
2. Start weight shift from heel to toeside (frame #4), or initiate stance switch like in this video
3. Once the weight is fully on toeside (frame #8), downloop the kite

I really like the idea that "the nose of the board has to be ahead of the kite".

I didn't analyze it too much, in a kind of just do what works philosophy, but my main difference between foil and surfboard/TT in terms of downloops is that the kite gets to travel up before being sent in the downloop, whereas it is sent in a downloop from wherever it is in the window if on a surfboard/TT, unless it's really too low already. So maybe there's more following the kite on those power hungry vessels.

We can clearly see the kite going up before the downloop on the Duotone sequence, although its purpose is usually meant to provide a bit of lift and stability while switching feet, that also works when not switching feet.
And during that phase of the kite getting up, there is also a phase of "preparation" for the turn of the board. The nose of the board doesn't really turn much yet, but I get more upright and therefore the roll of the foil changes. Then as I downloop, the yaw and roll motion happens to commit and guide the board into the turn.
And I'm sure getting the kite up is also a way to make sure that your big foil kite on short lines has the maximum amount of space to complete the turn.

The point of sending the kite up first is to use the geometry to your advantage, especially in light wind, to keep tension on the lines, board speed and space for the kite to loop and build speed. Good for any kind of kite