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Stable wings for 20-30 knots and 2-4m swell

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plummet
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Stable wings for 20-30 knots and 2-4m swell

Postby plummet » Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:13 pm

Hey lads and ladies,

I'm about to embark on a wing making exercise. My brief is to make wings that are more stable and can handle tumultuous sea conditions in the 20-30 knot range.
Riding swell and waves head high and above. I want to handle fast waves and quick changes currents/lift in the water.

What specs/features do you think I need to design into them?
What existing wings out there do a good job in this service?

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Re: Stable wings for 20-30 knots and 2-4m swell

Postby slowboat » Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:32 pm

Closest production foil I know of to match your bill is the Armstrong 800.

plummet
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Re: Stable wings for 20-30 knots and 2-4m swell

Postby plummet » Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:10 pm

Do you guys think dihedral rear anhedral front with give more stability that anhedral front and rear?
I like the idea of anhedral front and rear as there's less chance of venting a wing. But if extra stability is gained through having anhedral/dihedral combo then i'll consider it.

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Re: Stable wings for 20-30 knots and 2-4m swell

Postby TomW » Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:34 pm

I'd also consider a longer fuselage smaller rear wing

plummet
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Re: Stable wings for 20-30 knots and 2-4m swell

Postby plummet » Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:08 am

I've got a one piece fuse/mast combo. Not keen to make a whole new foil assy yet. So its wings only.
Ps I'm already running longish fuse smaller stab combo.

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Re: Stable wings for 20-30 knots and 2-4m swell

Postby slowboat » Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:46 pm

Not understanding the thinking behind longer fuse for waves?? Longer fuse may achieve some pitch stability but will be slower to correct pitch and also slower yaw plus increased drag.

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Re: Stable wings for 20-30 knots and 2-4m swell

Postby drsurf » Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:41 pm

Hi Plummet.
I think I've spoken about this before. Go and try some foils of different types and see how they perform. You have the unusual good fortune to have in New Zealand some of the worlds foremost foil designers and builders such as Axis, Armstrong & J-Shapes. These guys are world class in their designs and use of advanced composites. You could build foils for a lifetime and not even come close to the foils these guys are putting out.

I was at the Merimbula Classic event on the South Coast of NSW, Australia this last weekend and there were foils from a large range of brands to view and demo on the water. They were mainly surf foils of all sizes and shapes for an incredible range of conditions and foilers. Better still Kiwi Adrian Roper, the main man for Axis foils was there on site, showing his latest range of surf foils and answering anything you could ask with regard to design, usage and engineering. Adrian has had decades of experience globally with regard to wind powered sport design, starting with sailboards, kiteboards and now foil gear. Adrian's company Axis seems to have a continuous production approach where new products are continually released throughout the year as they prove their capability. The surf range now has a very large range of variants of wings and stabilisers catering for just about anyones needs regardless of weight, surf or style.

I have spoken to Adrian a number of times over the years and I do sell the Axis range. I have always been blown away by his incredible knowledge, skill and dedication to producing the best products for foiling as well as other products such as boards. Armie Armstrong from Armstrong and Antoine from J-Shapes have equally demonstrated a unique approach to foil design using advanced composite manufacturing techniques and incorporating titanium into the Armstrong fuselage.

What I'm getting at is that you live in a small country with the worlds best foils you can demo and even speak to the designers. You'd be crazy not to at least try some of their foils and even if you build your own, take into consideration some of their design characteristics. I'm envious of the fact such a small country as New Zealand can produce such an incredible range of foil gear and Australia, a much bigger country surrounded by sea doesn't :(
Get out there and demo some NZ foils and let us know what you find...

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Re: Stable wings for 20-30 knots and 2-4m swell

Postby Peter_Frank » Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:01 pm

drsurf is right, try some, ride more, and find out what you find works!

Your desire is a bit contradictory, as stable wings are fast small flat wings, they dont give you ponyrides (kangaroo) the same way and are super stable at higher speeds and chop.

BUT, when you ride bigger waves (or small ones), you want a huge (draggy) wing that does not accelerate you into crazy things and crashes, and where you can park the ultrasmall kite and surf instead.

Two very opposite wings required IMO.

8) Peter

plummet
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Re: Stable wings for 20-30 knots and 2-4m swell

Postby plummet » Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:38 pm

I agree with both of you guys. I should test other designs. However that is difficult as there are none locally other than one other guy who kites at different times and uses big slow sup/surf wings. I have physically seen an Armstrong sup foil but not had a chance to ride it.

I would love to try Jayshapes, Armstrong and Axis foils at some point. However traveling to other parts of the country to demo is expensive and I would feel bad pretending to be interested in buying a foil to demo it when I have no intention on buying it. Plus getting to try these foils in the conditions i want to ride them in would be even more unlikely. If I a get the chance to try one i will. In the last 2 years i've had the opportunity to try one other foil. That was a spitfire.
So opportunities to trial other foils are very lean without expensive travel that will overtime cost as much or more than just buying a new foil from one of these manufactures.

Even though testing other designs is the most obvious thing to do it is off the cards for now due to budget, time and conditions constraints.

My question in this thread is more about what you guys use in these condition.
What wings are you using and why?
Have you found anhedral/dihedral combo better than anhedral/anhedral?

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Re: Stable wings for 20-30 knots and 2-4m swell

Postby drsurf » Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:14 pm

Good grief man, you're in New Zealand. Nothing is a big trip compared to Australia or Europe where you may have to catch a flight to a good kite kiting destination.
The New Zealand Kitesurfing Facebook site, https://www.facebook.com/groups/115325528485030/ has 2,362 members, no doubt some are foilers who are not too far away from you. Talk to them, catch up, swap gear and try their foils. There are also no doubt events in NZ where there are demo days where you can demo a whole range of foils. Doesn't matter that it's not like home, you can still get an idea of the characteristics such as speed, manoeuvrability, wind range etc.

Anhedral, dihedral etc doesn't matter on its own, there are way too many other design considerations such as chord dimension, thickness, thickness across the width of the foil, aspect ratio, shape, stabiliser size & design etc. Each of these will have its advantages and disadvantages, you need to try these if possible in isolation and combination if you want to know what works for you specifically.

One other consideration, try a Flysurfer Peak4 kite if you can, a 3m Peak4 for 20 - 30 knots. It will rearrange your mind about what is possible with a small kite and and a good surf foil. You can turn the kite off and surf the wave with the foil as if you've tossed the kite which is just drifting along above you with minimal pull. May change what you want in a surf foil :D
Half the price of an LEI kite so much fun!


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