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First impression of Gong M Pro

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Windigo1
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Re: First impression of Gong M Pro

Postby Windigo1 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:04 pm

Yes I would say stick wit the smaller kite stab. The fuselage is very long so you don't need a big stab. My Groovestake must be a 2019 I got it and the beginning of 2019. Even with my stab cut down to 35cm I still need to move the rear screws to 2 most forward rear hole in order to move the mast a bit further back. This foil was obviously designed for a much larger board. It is nice though it's faster than my Moses 633 and very easy to carve and change direction very stable. The low end is bit less but not much when it drops at low speed it's more sudden but you have to go really slow for that.

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Re: First impression of Gong M Pro

Postby Flyboy » Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:12 pm

Presumably there are some performance differences between these various stabs. My MPro setup came with the 40 cm (250cm2) stab. It rides great ... but I have nothing to compare it with. My other two foils have completely different stab designs ... they also work fine!

As far as I understand it, the Gong website now lists two different kite stabs: the 45cm (272 cm) kite stab & the 40cm (210cm2) "high performance" stab. So they don't seem to offer the 40cm (250cm2) "surf stab" with the kite foils anymore. To further complicate things the Veloce M appears to come with a different stab again: 43cm (280cm2) which is larger than the two other stabs & larger than my surf stab. Fairly confusing!

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Re: First impression of Gong M Pro

Postby azoele » Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:30 am

Good luck finding it :D
They have "rupture de stock" unfortunately...
Ulrik wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:20 pm
I asked Gong for a Freewave M set, but with a change of stab from kite to surf.
This is their answer:
I fully recommend the kite stab 40cm with the front wing CURVE in kitefoil.
You will still have a very good lift at low speed (due to the front wing CURVE) and it will allow you better performance and a more reactive foil.
The surf stab is more thicker that will reduce considerably the speed (you will feel a brake).
You should definitely keep the kite stab 40cm from the kitefoil pack you selected.
If you really want a surf stab, you should consider to buy a surf stab in 40cm (with the front wing CURVE in size M) but we can't change a foil pack.


So I think I will buy the extra surf stab, just to have both options.

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Re: First impression of Gong M Pro

Postby azoele » Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:33 am

Windigo1 wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:28 pm
They sold me the M Pro with the surf stab it's too big the foil is too lifty too much down pressure from that stab on my setup. I had a 45cm stab from the kite foil but that was too big too so I had to cut it down and reshape the tips. It works sort of good now. I wish they had sent my the kite stab. If I order one the shipping to get it here is insane. I'm usign a Groveskate 130 maybe a bigger board it would work or a board with the mast further back.
Several months ago they suggested to me too a 45cm stab (kite) with L Pro, when I asked for a extremely low wind setup. (6/7 knots).

I hope it'll all be the best, as at 110Kg, I'm comfortably out of the average...

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Re: First impression of Gong M Pro

Postby azoele » Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:38 am

Windigo1 wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:04 pm
Yes I would say stick wit the smaller kite stab. The fuselage is very long so you don't need a big stab. My Groovestake must be a 2019 I got it and the beginning of 2019. Even with my stab cut down to 35cm I still need to move the rear screws to 2 most forward rear hole in order to move the mast a bit further back. This foil was obviously designed for a much larger board. It is nice though it's faster than my Moses 633 and very easy to carve and change direction very stable. The low end is bit less but not much when it drops at low speed it's more sudden but you have to go really slow for that.
Ouch... I wanted something for extreme light wind, and actually felt the 633 to stall too early.
If the L Pro stalls sooner than the 633, than I probably went in the wrong direction.

A question: I too have a Groove Skate.
How did you use Gong's nuts/bolts with the Skate?

The nuts (the brass objects that fit into the Groove's rail) are a smidge too small for the tracks: they don't lock precisely, and risk being tightened in a slanted position.
The nuts are of a different standard than Groove's, but they fit perfectly to my Newwind carbon board (I believe Groove's to be around 15mm, and Newwind and Gong to be around 12/13.

How did you put together the carbon mast with the Groove, given the size mismatch?
Did you have any problem?

Haven't tried the foil yet, but the Newwind board scares me: it's incredibly light and small, extremely technical, much more nervous than the Groove Skate L I use, so I'm afraid it'll add to the difficulty of switching to a different foil :?:

Thank you,
Lopi

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Re: First impression of Gong M Pro

Postby azoele » Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:40 am

My intuition is that they "compartimentalize" their products.
A kitefoil is a kitefoil, and a sup foil is a sup foil :D
The kitefoil will need to be playful, lively, the sup foil more stable and able to follow a carve. Hence, the differing stabs.

As to the veloce, they have smaller front wings per size (i.e. the XXL in Surf is 2.800cmq, in Veloce it is 1.900cmq), so they probably use the stab do add needed lift.

Or... or: I may be completely wrong :D

Flyboy wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:12 pm
Presumably there are some performance differences between these various stabs. My MPro setup came with the 40 cm (250cm2) stab. It rides great ... but I have nothing to compare it with. My other two foils have completely different stab designs ... they also work fine!

As far as I understand it, the Gong website now lists two different kite stabs: the 45cm (272 cm) kite stab & the 40cm (210cm2) "high performance" stab. So they don't seem to offer the 40cm (250cm2) "surf stab" with the kite foils anymore. To further complicate things the Veloce M appears to come with a different stab again: 43cm (280cm2) which is larger than the two other stabs & larger than my surf stab. Fairly confusing!

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Re: First impression of Gong M Pro

Postby Peter_Frank » Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:08 am

Problem (challenge) is, for both Gong and Moses, that with all these wings and stabs, they can just "try" to make some descriptions/packages for the less experienced.

As in reality is it us users only, who can choose what we want in wing-stab mix, as there does not exist any mix that wont work.

For a kitefoil I always use the smallest possible stab, if I use a big frontwing, as otherwise it will be too slow turning (dull, not lively like the smaller wings).
And with a smaller frontwing, it is not as necessary as they are plenty fast turning, so instead of using an even smaller stab, the same small stab can be used - easy this way just change frontwing.

For wingfoil (or SUPfoil eventhough I dont do it) I use a supersmall stab also, with a huge frontwing - again, for liveliness in turning as this is my "liking", instead of super stability.

Others could have the complete opposite liking, stable and easy, for learning, or learning transitions, or pumping.

So dont put too much in what the brand are advertising - as they need to have some standard packages, and when there are these kitefoil-wingfoil-SUPfoil where some parts are the same, it gets difficult to get the full overview.

Confusing, yes, but nothing we can do about it, except try to help each other.
And even this, is very subjective also :wink:

8) Peter
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Re: First impression of Gong M Pro

Postby TomW » Fri Aug 07, 2020 7:01 pm

The 40cm kite stab has 218 cm2, the 40 cm surf stab 232 cm2.
Mainly the surf stab has anhedral and thicker profile.
Yes, surf stab is a bit slower, but it grips and drives in powered and fast carves. The kite stab washes and slides for me. Yes kite stab is more agile, but the washing out wasn't nice for me, so ended up using surf stab all the time.
Then i got veloce m and veloce 43 stab. It doesn't wash out and whole setup is faster more agile without any meaningful loss of lowend.
So if you think pro m with surf stab is slow ? Then I'd say take the step and get the veloce wings.
Note : I have 100cm monobloc mast on veloce, but I tested pro m with surf stab on same mast. Never tested veloce m on the 90 cm alu mast.

Gong is adamantly recommending the kite stab with pro m for kiting, i suspect its because they ride like pros, and a pro might prefer that. But for a regular Joe, kiting 2x a week, I say get the surf stab.

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Re: First impression of Gong M Pro

Postby AndersP » Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:03 pm

TomW wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 7:01 pm
The 40cm kite stab has 218 cm2, the 40 cm surf stab 232 cm2.
Mainly the surf stab has anhedral and thicker profile.
Yes, surf stab is a bit slower, but it grips and drives in powered and fast carves. The kite stab washes and slides for me. Yes kite stab is more agile, but the washing out wasn't nice for me, so ended up using surf stab all the time.
Then i got veloce m and veloce 43 stab. It doesn't wash out and whole setup is faster more agile without any meaningful loss of lowend.
So if you think pro m with surf stab is slow ? Then I'd say take the step and get the veloce wings.
Note : I have 100cm monobloc mast on veloce, but I tested pro m with surf stab on same mast. Never tested veloce m on the 90 cm alu mast.

Gong is adamantly recommending the kite stab with pro m for kiting, i suspect its because they ride like pros, and a pro might prefer that. But for a regular Joe, kiting 2x a week, I say get the surf stab.
Tom if you compare the veloce stab to the kite stab, what is the difference in behavior?

I have a kite 45 stab and a surf 45 stab and they differ a lot. There is a much more locked in feeling in the surf stab and you feel the drag. The kite 45 stab feels faster and looser. On the Rise wing the kite stab felt perfect but on the Curve wing it was to loose in the beginning. Now I think I'm more prepared to go with the kitestab again. For training foot switches I think I'll stick with the surf 45 though.

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Re: First impression of Gong M Pro

Postby azoele » Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:19 pm

Today I tried for the first time the L Pro with the Kite stab 40cm (the standard FreeWave combo).
I have to say, it was a very, but very different experience from my 633+483s Moses.

These are my impressions, maybe they can be useful.

Stall Behaviour
The main issue (which caused me a painful crash with bruises), is that the foil, at very low speeds, behaves in the opposite way compared to the Onda.
  • Under a certain speed, the 633 wants to stall, so you incline in upwards, and it will still give enough lift, gently sinking but keeping the front of the board still pointing up. Very easy to manage, and conducive to much play.
  • The Pro L has a disconcerting (at first) behaviour: if you go below a certain threshold, it won't stall. I will instead have a jolt of lift, very powerful, bringing you up. It is probably the stabilizer stalling before the front wing, so all of a sudden the lift from the front has no counterbalance, and it just sends you sky high.
    Lose some more speed, and the stall will be abrupt, with the board crashing front in the water.
The behaviour left me disappointed at first, as I was afraid the setup can't be used as the Onda to slow down, catch a wave, or do a pinpoint jibe losing all speed: no dragging the foil tilted upwards, it instead will either lift like crazy, or stall abruptly.

Later on, I began to understand the behaviour some more... and to appreciate it.

The GONG will warn you of excessive loss of speed with its pointing up. You have the time to point it down (with some effort from your front knee...), and in so doing gain you will gain a bit of speed. This behaviour though, leaves you with ample time to manouver the kite and regain power, and to quickly get moving again.
This proved useful both during waterstart in marginal wind, and during jibes again in very light wind. Once, I had to do 3 downloops to get moving, and on a very slow kite (Peak 4, 13m). 1st put tension in the lines, the 2nd got me up, and, at the extremely low speed, the foil rocketed me up. So when the Peak decided to complete its third downloop, I was high on the water, with a flat board, ready to go. That was rather impressive behaviour.
With the Onda, I would be fully tilted backwards to keep lift, and the foil would drag horribly, requiring much coordination to finally get going in marginal wind.

Jibes
The behaviour is useful also during very slow jibes: no "falling" into the turn like the Onda, which will compensate with immediate pull.
No, the L Pro turns (for now...) in wider arcs, so it requires you to keep the center of mass on the foil is preferred.
But in marginal wind, while waiting for the kite to downloop (those large Peaks again...), losing speed is not a problem.
Eventually, the foil will kicks you upwards, a gentle pump, and there's time to wait for the kite to pull again.
All natural, and all exceedingly smooth.

Waterstarts
Waterstarts are different too because of the slow speed behaviour: again, the 633 would require me to weigh on my back foot. The GONG wants the opposite, especially if you do a timid waterstart. Else, it feels like the board's nose bends your front knee to really come up.
Still, it's fun to do a downloop, have the kite pull only during the upward part, so you get immediately up on the foil, and have the time to do another loop or to move the kite for power: it's practically start from standstill, but in foiling at up to 1 meter! :)
Am sure the high lift at very low speeds will be a boon for marginal wind kiting.

Foot Switches
Flying foot switches were not too difficult.
The foil is more stable than the 633, so it doesn't make them more complex, possibly easier.
Funnily: the lift is so high, you feel like you are walking on the foil: switching the feet, the board remains stiff in the air, it feels like you are putting your feet on the pavement so stable vertically it is!

Sinking
Yep, TomW was perfectly right. It sinks. Not too quickly, but it does.
A bit annoying strapless, and also, it seems to encourage to foil to come looking for you after a crash in navigation mode... :)

100cm Carbon Mast
No comment on the stiffness (have definitely not enough sensitivity or ability...).
But I was amazed at how much you can tilt laterally while still keeping the wing submerged. Due to some chop my board touched the water at times, but the wings stayed in the water.
The 633 with the 91cm mast would breach easily.

For now, just impressions needing many more hours of refinement.
But these are the things that did strike me the most.

Of course, being always the one who knows better, I didn't trust GONG's people when they wrote I would have had much more lift than with the 633.
I thought: 633= 1250sqcm; L PRO =1300sqcm. Kite stab on the GONG much smaller, and wing A/R much higher: how can it have more lift?
Having tried Moses' 790+483s combo (the 790 is a 1550sqcm wing) and having remained underwhelmed at the 790's lift and stall speed compared to the 633, I was certain the GONG was going to be like the 633 at best... silly me.
it's a radically differen wing, with huge lift at low speed, and much stability.

More to come after the next sessions.

Hope I didn't bore you, just wished to share so that other might find information on this wing.
The M Pro seems much loved, but little is said of the L Pro (probably because heavyweight kiters are rarer! :) )
Lopi

P.s.
was worried about the brass nuts not fitting my Groove skate.
I mounted them upside down and they were perfect.
I didn't feel very smart when I realized I hadn't noticed the possibility... :D
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