Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

why are mast tracks so far from tail of board?

A forum dedicated to Hydrofoil riders
windmaker
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1658
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2003 8:48 am
Local Beach: .
Style: Strapless surf and foil
Gear: F-One & Aeros kites/ HB surf/ Taaroa foil/ Manera
Has thanked: 15 times
Been thanked: 30 times
Contact:

Re: why are mast tracks so far from tail of board?

Postby windmaker » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:39 pm

Agreed, the more experienced you are the further back you stand. Whether riding a 510cm2 or 1400cm2 wing my back foot is always right at the edge of the tail with the foil in the middle/front of the tracks.

When teaching beginners, the foil is usually all the way back in the tracks as beginners with a typical TT background are back foot heavy and tend to pop up too early. This also helps make the pitch control less sensitive.

The problem arises when they spend too much time in that position and get used to it...

tomtom
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1376
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2002 1:00 am
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 149 times

Re: why are mast tracks so far from tail of board?

Postby tomtom » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:53 pm

i dont know what experience have with center of effort of foil. I dont change my stance at all - from beginer. I stand neutral /balls just above foil center of "lift" I can move feet closer or far away from each other but balls are always in same position. I cannot just move back without compensating with front foot /which can be tiresome/.
Am i missing something?

cwood
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 601
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:28 pm
Local Beach: Cherry Beach, Toronto
Gear: Flysurfer
Moses Hydrofoil
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 43 times

Re: why are mast tracks so far from tail of board?

Postby cwood » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:57 pm

tomtom wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:53 pm
i dont know what experience have with center of effort of foil. I dont change my stance at all - from beginer. I stand neutral /balls just above foil center of "lift" I can move feet closer or far away from each other but balls are always in same position. I cannot just move back without compensating with front foot /which can be tiresome/.
Am i missing something?
No you are not. Foils don't break the rules of hydro dynamics. Center of gravity is center of gravity. Within a range of basic comfort, one doesn't decide where to put their CG. The foil does!. Much like why air craft position weight appropriately.

grigorib
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2228
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:12 pm
Kiting since: 2009
Local Beach: OBX; Clinton Lake, IL; Lake Michigan; La Ventana, SPI; Tawas, MI
Gear: Kites: Slingshot Rally 5/7/9/11m, SST 5m, Turbine 9m, Flysurfer Speed4 10m standard, Peter Lynn Venom II ARC 16m

Boards: Spleene RIP 37, Flysurfer Radical6 138, Flysurfer Flydoor5 XL, Slingshot/Moses 80/82/91/105cm masts with 590/330 695/425 683s/450 679/483 wingsets, Tim's 36" woody, Slingshot Dwarfcraft Micro 3'6" 2019-2020, MBS Comp 95x

For sale: Slingshot SST 6m 2018 $480, Slingshot Turbine 5m 2017 like new $450, BROkite carbon board 140x44cm like new complete $650, Slingshot Rally 6m 2017 like new $530

Moses 590/647/330 $740, Moses 633/749/483 $790, Moses 683s/749/483 $890, 75cm alu mast $200, 80cm alu mast $260
.
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 146 times
Been thanked: 193 times

Re: why are mast tracks so far from tail of board?

Postby grigorib » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:04 pm

The difference in wing<->mast position, stabilizer size and angle, mast rake, etc. have significant effect on resulting stance. It takes only few rides to tune in but if tracks don’t allow to move mast more back or forward, then you find yourself standing funny on the board or not having enough board space to stand.

Race wings/boards shaped board geometry until recently. Freeride folks appear to ride larger wings and smaller boards which often demand different mast/feet position.

Speaking of adjusting your stance - it evolves but not as much as board design limits folks from year to year. People also narrow their stance for freeride and tend to stand wider for edged, powered upwind.

User avatar
jkrug
Frequent Poster
Posts: 498
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:17 pm
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 17 times

Re: why are mast tracks so far from tail of board?

Postby jkrug » Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:04 pm

grigorib wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:04 pm
It takes only few rides to tune in but if tracks don’t allow to move mast more back or forward, then you find yourself standing funny on the board or not having enough board space to stand.
yeah, that's really my complaint here. i feel my board is virtually shortened by my most comfortable stance. if both my feet are forward of the mast track, that area becomes pretty small pretty quick. i've noticed it most recently dropping to a board 6" shorter in length from my previous. if manufacturers put the tracks further back, or provided such an option, that extra space would help...and i could actually use the kicker.

grigorib
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2228
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:12 pm
Kiting since: 2009
Local Beach: OBX; Clinton Lake, IL; Lake Michigan; La Ventana, SPI; Tawas, MI
Gear: Kites: Slingshot Rally 5/7/9/11m, SST 5m, Turbine 9m, Flysurfer Speed4 10m standard, Peter Lynn Venom II ARC 16m

Boards: Spleene RIP 37, Flysurfer Radical6 138, Flysurfer Flydoor5 XL, Slingshot/Moses 80/82/91/105cm masts with 590/330 695/425 683s/450 679/483 wingsets, Tim's 36" woody, Slingshot Dwarfcraft Micro 3'6" 2019-2020, MBS Comp 95x

For sale: Slingshot SST 6m 2018 $480, Slingshot Turbine 5m 2017 like new $450, BROkite carbon board 140x44cm like new complete $650, Slingshot Rally 6m 2017 like new $530

Moses 590/647/330 $740, Moses 633/749/483 $790, Moses 683s/749/483 $890, 75cm alu mast $200, 80cm alu mast $260
.
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 146 times
Been thanked: 193 times

Re: why are mast tracks so far from tail of board?

Postby grigorib » Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:10 pm

jkrug wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 10:04 pm
grigorib wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:04 pm
It takes only few rides to tune in but if tracks don’t allow to move mast more back or forward, then you find yourself standing funny on the board or not having enough board space to stand.
yeah, that's really my complaint here. i feel my board is virtually shortened by my most comfortable stance. if both my feet are forward of the mast track, that area becomes pretty small pretty quick. i've noticed it most recently dropping to a board 6" shorter in length from my previous. if manufacturers put the tracks further back, or provided such an option, that extra space would help...and i could actually use the kicker.
You can shim stabilizer pointing it couple degrees up and it will move your stance back by 1-2”. Couple of degrees should not have major impact on foil performance. People drill additional holes in the mast plate to be able to move mast beyond the track or opt out for different board manufacturer/model. A smaller stabilizer might also help loving stance back but it will make riding feel different.

Which board and foil are you on?

TomW
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 3153
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 6:43 pm
Local Beach: Vejbystrand, Habo Ljung, Lomma
Gear: TW Surfboards 5-0
TW Surfboards hydrofoil board 90,105,110cm
Moses Fluente 550/590 + 330/325 and 633 se
Ozone Hyperlink 9mUL, 7m
Hyperlink V2 13m
Concept Air Wave 4,5m
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Sweden
Has thanked: 29 times
Been thanked: 83 times

Re: why are mast tracks so far from tail of board?

Postby TomW » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:04 pm

This is why I started building my own boards 3 years ago. The moses T40 i got with my first moses fluente and 550 wing was all wrong in many ways. Too much volume, too long, too wide.
Later as i learned, I realised that foil could be way back.
And that each foil was individual, and the board needs to be designed for that particular foil, and individual style.

I spent decades riding bicycles and built my own frames for 10 years. In that world, frames are tailored to individual. Its amazing how this domain still has not fully realised the need.
People are riding " one size fits all" boards.

User avatar
edt
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 5655
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:27 am
Local Beach: Michigan
Gear: slingshot liquid force wainman pansh naish duotone cwb burton ronix rpm ozone
Has thanked: 72 times
Been thanked: 104 times

Re: why are mast tracks so far from tail of board?

Postby edt » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:36 pm

I think usually you want the wing centered directly under the board or maybe a little bit back from it.

When they create wings they generally put the mast in the middle the tail at the back of the fuselage and the wing in front of the mast. Why? I do not know. Anyway, because wing is actually set up in front of the mast that means you need the mast to be behind the center of the board if you want the wing centered so that's what they do.

If instead of putting the wing in front of the mast they put the wing directly under the mast and then had the fuselage and tail coming straight back from that, then you could mount the mast in the center of the board.

Anyway that's how I see it.

User avatar
Flyboy
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1528
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 1:00 am
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 31 times
Been thanked: 39 times

Re: why are mast tracks so far from tail of board?

Postby Flyboy » Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:44 am

A better question may be: why do they have so much of the track so far forward in a position where you could never use it? With my SS DWC 3'6" the plate for my smallest wing (700cm) is positioned only a couple of inches forward of the back of the track. Fortunately, the plate for my Gong foil has two sets of holes, so even though the track on the DWC doesn't go back that far, it's possible to position the plate further back.

User avatar
Peter_Frank
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 9708
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 1:00 am
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Denmark
Has thanked: 186 times
Been thanked: 174 times

Re: why are mast tracks so far from tail of board?

Postby Peter_Frank » Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:05 am

Flyboy wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:44 am
A better question may be: why do they have so much of the track so far forward in a position where you could never use it? With my SS DWC 3'6" the plate for my smallest wing (700cm) is positioned only a couple of inches forward of the back of the track. Fortunately, the plate for my Gong foil has two sets of holes, so even though the track on the DWC doesn't go back that far, it's possible to position the plate further back.

Will just recite what I said - the more experienced you get, the further rear you stand.

Meaning, the more experienced you get, the more forward you put the mast in the tracks.

Of course, a few boards are simply "wrong", meaning not in trim with the typical foil, but seems to be very rare they are "off".
Have ridden 5-6 different brands, and not much difference in trim/stance position on any of them.

8) Peter


Return to “Hydrofoil”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests