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Strutless LEI vs foil

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Pemba
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Re: Strutless LEI vs foil

Postby Pemba » Thu Feb 20, 2020 7:39 am

Ok thanks all. I have a good launch site and relatively constant wind. Also warm water and side/on shore wind. I'll look for a foil. That might mean I'll have to swim in a number of times before being able to do good transitions in little wind but that's fine. What sort of bottom end difference could I expect between a 12 and a 15 (on a pocket board) ?

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Re: Strutless LEI vs foil

Postby airsail » Thu Feb 20, 2020 7:57 am

Pocket board with a decent size surf wing, a 10 mtr foil kite is probably the biggest you will need. Anything bigger can become a handful fairly quickly.
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Re: Strutless LEI vs foil

Postby Peter_Frank » Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:04 am

Pemba wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 7:39 am
Ok thanks all. I have a good launch site and relatively constant wind. Also warm water and side/on shore wind. I'll look for a foil. That might mean I'll have to swim in a number of times before being able to do good transitions in little wind but that's fine. What sort of bottom end difference could I expect between a 12 and a 15 (on a pocket board) ?

As a 15 m2 LEI is useless for hydrofoiling...

A 12 m2 strutless works dandy in 7 to 8 knots with experience.

A 10 m2 strutless works from 8 to 9 knots.

A 12 m2 UL foilkite works from 6-7 knots (if you are experienced)
A 15 m2 UL foilkite works in about the same, not much gain.
(UL stands for UltraLight material, as if not they dont work in this light wind at all, and you will drop them very often and in for a swim...)

If you are new, you should definitely add a couple of knots to above low ends.

Of course talking about average weight riders and relatively big wings.

Personally I prefer a 12 m2 strutless over any foilkite, whenever possible, as it turns faster and hangs just as well as a foilkite, sometimes even better.
Peak power is not the same, so you will lose something in this respect, compared to a foil kite.
But you will enjoy just letting the kite drift ashore on the water if wind drops, instead of having to pack it down.

Personal what one likes the most :wink:

When wind gets really low, an UL foilkite with more peak power is the only way to go.
Foilkites also got a much bigger windrange than LEI kites, so that is a big advantage, eventhough they turn like dogs.
Ups and downs of both :naughty:

8) Peter
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Re: Strutless LEI vs foil

Postby a99 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:53 am

Peter_Frank wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:04 am
Pemba wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 7:39 am
Ok thanks all.
A 15 m2 UL foilkite works in about the same, not much gain.
(UL stands for UltraLight material, as if not they dont work in this light wind at all, and you will drop them very often and in for
Don't understand what do you mean about UL material foils > as if not they dont work in this light wind at all?

Commenting about lei to foil i think if you like jump with foil of course foil kites are much better in this on low winds.

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Re: Strutless LEI vs foil

Postby Peter_Frank » Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:22 pm

a99 wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:53 am
Peter_Frank wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:04 am
Pemba wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 7:39 am
Ok thanks all.
A 15 m2 UL foilkite works in about the same, not much gain.
(UL stands for UltraLight material, as if not they dont work in this light wind at all, and you will drop them very often and in for
Don't understand what do you mean about UL material foils > as if not they dont work in this light wind at all?

Commenting about lei to foil i think if you like jump with foil of course foil kites are much better in this on low winds.

My point was, if you get a foilkite for hydrofoil use in 4-6 knots of wind, marginal wind, it has to be UL material to work.

If not UL materials, it will not work as too heavy (but strong) like say older Flysurfer Speeds and other kites in this marginal wind.

Of course, in more wind, or for jumping, any foilkite will work, and in even more wind, any LEI kite will work.

8) Peter

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Re: Strutless LEI vs foil

Postby grigorib » Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:25 pm

Pemba wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:01 pm
I’ve recently started hydrofoiling. My kiting days are now limited by my kite falling in low wind. Best I can do is 5 strut LEI (Eleveight FS 12 m), Moses 550 and “pocket” board. So I am considering buying either a strutless or single strut LEI like BRM Cloud, Gong strutless etc, or a foil such as probably Flysurfer Soul or Kitech FRS, possibly UL. Waves are not really an issue where I am. I’m app 80 kg. How would you rate strutless/single strut LEI vs foil in terms of absolute light wind use and in terms of freeriding on flatwater/chop with twintip ? Which size would make most sense ? Does it make more sense to just look for a bigger foil ? I guess this is likely to happen at some point anyway but I'm still enjoying and on a good learning curve on this one.
I think you have couple of things which are inappropriate for lightwind and kite choice wouldn't be my first focus.
1. Major thing - 550 wing. It's a very good wing but Moses spent years in R&D developing better since releasing 550. 548 back in 2017 was already thicker (same size) and lightwindier. Two years back 590 (thicker than 550 and larger) was popping up everywhere and became very popular replacement. Now you can get 695 for your fuselage and you will feel that heaven touched your riding in lightwind conditions. Simplest change for you.
Other option is to get surf wing set for your mast - something like 633 or 679 would be a good bet (or older 683s wing which is identical to 679))
2. Pocket board in light wind is not what everyone would use. I do but many folks would call out for larger board. My advice - keep riding the board you love. Fix the wing problem
3. Kite choice - I know racers ride tiny wings on huge kites and large boards. I don't think it's as much fun as freeriding. Freeriding perspective is - take a 9/10m kite (find a light one. doesn't need to be superlight, just not too heavy), fly it with line extensions (30+ meter total line length). Don't pick a 15m kite - it's a bad direction. Your 12m is already too big for fun riding.

Don't do strutless. Don't do foil kites. I mean, they're flyable but you might be disappointed after flying a good structured kite.

Bottom line - get a lightwind wing. 695 is amazing, even better if you can add larger stabilizer like 425, or get a surf set 633/483 and it will extend your rideable range of winds greately.
Last edited by grigorib on Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:35 pm, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: Strutless LEI vs foil

Postby cor » Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:26 pm

Pemba wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 7:39 am
Ok thanks all. I have a good launch site and relatively constant wind. Also warm water and side/on shore wind. I'll look for a foil. That might mean I'll have to swim in a number of times before being able to do good transitions in little wind but that's fine. What sort of bottom end difference could I expect between a 12 and a 15 (on a pocket board) ?
If you go for the FS Soul, you should consider the 10m with your weight. I am 90Kg and use it down to 8 knots ... but in gusty conditions and with small launch sites. So with constant wind and skill you should be able to use it down to 7 knots. Don't be fooled and think 12m is just 2m more and won't make a big difference, because it does as there seems to be an (intentional?) gap between 10 and 12. 12 and above seems to be more tuned for lightwind, but you will have way slower turning with these than you would expect.

Apart from that I agree with Peter; It's all down to personal preferences in the end. I clearly prefer foil kites for the lower end.
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Re: Strutless LEI vs foil

Postby Pemba » Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:16 pm

grigorib wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:25 pm
Pemba wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:01 pm
I’ve recently started hydrofoiling. My kiting days are now limited by my kite falling in low wind. Best I can do is 5 strut LEI (Eleveight FS 12 m), Moses 550 and “pocket” board. So I am considering buying either a strutless or single strut LEI like BRM Cloud, Gong strutless etc, or a foil such as probably Flysurfer Soul or Kitech FRS, possibly UL. Waves are not really an issue where I am. I’m app 80 kg. How would you rate strutless/single strut LEI vs foil in terms of absolute light wind use and in terms of freeriding on flatwater/chop with twintip ? Which size would make most sense ? Does it make more sense to just look for a bigger foil ? I guess this is likely to happen at some point anyway but I'm still enjoying and on a good learning curve on this one.
I think you have couple of things which are inappropriate for lightwind and kite choice wouldn't be my first focus.
1. Major thing - 550 wing. It's a very good wing but Moses spent years in R&D developing better since releasing 550. 548 back in 2017 was already thicker (same size) and lightwindier. Two years back 590 (thicker than 550 and larger) was popping up everywhere and became very popular replacement. Now you can get 695 for your fuselage and you will feel that heaven touched your riding in lightwind conditions. Simplest change for you.
Other option is to get surf wing set for your mast - something like 633 or 679 would be a good bet (or older 683s wing which is identical to 679))
2. Pocket board in light wind is not what everyone would use. I do but many folks would call out for larger board. My advice - keep riding the board you love. Fix the wing problem
3. Kite choice - I know racers ride tiny wings on huge kites and large boards. I don't think it's as much fun as freeriding. Freeriding perspective is - take a 9/10m kite (find a light one. doesn't need to be superlight, just not too heavy), fly it with line extensions (30+ meter total line length). Don't pick a 15m kite - it's a bad direction. Your 12m is already too big for fun riding.

Don't do strutless. Don't do foil kites. I mean, they're flyable but you might be disappointed after flying a good structured kite.

Bottom line - get a lightwind wing. 695 is amazing, even better if you can add larger stabilizer like 425, or get a surf set 633/483 and it will extend your rideable range of winds greately.
Thanks very much, there is a lot in your post I need to look in to and I will defenately look for a 695/425 wing. Yes, I expected that 550 with pocket board wouldn't be what comes to mind when talking about light wind foiling. Nevertheless, at the moment I'm limited by (the weight of) my kite I think, not even by my limited skill. I guess I should probably measure the lightwind limit of my kite (maybe it's just me..?). And I haven't tried line extensions yet. In any case, lots of excellent information here, thanks all.

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Re: Strutless LEI vs foil

Postby xoen » Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:59 pm

Hello

What FS soul size would you recommend me if I get a 633 wing? I am 65 kg.
I am asking because I found a fantastic offer for an 8 m soul, brand new, 800 euro. What range should I expect from and 8? Can I ride with it under 10 knot? My initial thought was to go for a 9m..but the offer is tempting me..

thanks

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Re: Strutless LEI vs foil

Postby Peter_Frank » Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:21 pm

If you are good, I think you can start in 8 to 9 knots with the 8 m2 Soul and 65 kg so understand you are tempted.

8) Peter


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