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Strutless LEI vs foil

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bigtone667
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Re: Strutless LEI vs foil

Postby bigtone667 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:26 pm

grigorib wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:25 pm

Don't do strutless. Don't do foil kites. I mean, they're flyable but you might be disappointed after flying a good structured kite.
Interesting ..... I wouldn't bother doing a structured kite in light wind because they are too heavy or a foil kite cause they are pain to swim back in.
I only fly strutless with 32m lines with a hydrofoil.

Nice thing about kiting is the journey to figure out what works for you in the places you kite.
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grigorib
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Gear: Kites: Slingshot Rally 5/7/9/11m, SST 5m, Turbine 9m, Flysurfer Speed4 10m standard, Peter Lynn Venom II ARC 16m

Boards: Spleene RIP 37, Flysurfer Radical6 138, Flysurfer Flydoor5 XL, Slingshot/Moses 80/82/91/105cm masts with 590/330 695/425 683s/450 679/483 wingsets, Tim's 36" woody, Slingshot Dwarfcraft Micro 3'6" 2019-2020, MBS Comp 95x

For sale: Slingshot SST 6m 2018 $480, Slingshot Turbine 5m 2017 like new $450, BROkite carbon board 140x44cm like new complete $650, Slingshot Rally 6m 2017 like new $530

Moses 590/647/330 $740, Moses 633/749/483 $790, Moses 683s/749/483 $890, 75cm alu mast $200, 80cm alu mast $260
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Re: Strutless LEI vs foil

Postby grigorib » Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:06 pm

bigtone667 wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:26 pm
grigorib wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:25 pm

Don't do strutless. Don't do foil kites. I mean, they're flyable but you might be disappointed after flying a good structured kite.
Interesting ..... I wouldn't bother doing a structured kite in light wind because they are too heavy or a foil kite cause they are pain to swim back in.
I only fly strutless with 32m lines with a hydrofoil.

Nice thing about kiting is the journey to figure out what works for you in the places you kite.
For me it was a structured 17m Core on 40m lines which allowed to achieve better lowend than my 19m Speed3 Deluxe. Flown on same day/conditions.
And it was 17m Cloud which sucked incredibly compared to 15m Turbine and that’s how I made my choices.
Flying 15m Sonic vs my 15m Turbine - now we were talking business. But my launches are very challenging, very often those are exclusively drift launches and water landings so I opted for inflatable until I sold my 15m.

I’m not blind and I know that in La Ventana the race foils are first out on extreme light wind days. But I also know those are huge kites too. Have I had there my 15m Turbine I could have probably be first LEI on water (still after race foil kites)
But I have only one check-in and 5/7/9 plus clothes are in my carryon (so not much extra space/weight left)

Now comes strutless again, because the only strutless advantage I can surely benefit from is they’re light/compact to travel with. And maybe I should get a single strut (I can’t stand canopy glued to water) 10m kite as my lightwindiest, and pack 4/5/7 SST and 10 single-strut instead into same carryon. But again, the 9m Rally was meant to serve as jumping kite too and I did foil with it on the one of the lightest days (Jan 24) as one of the few LEIs on water and certainly the smallest kite on water that day overall.

There are lots of pros and cons for each type but I know what I value and demand, what I can live with and what will ruin my day.
Hence structured LEIs are the winner for me. I can ride in less wind with race foil kite and I’m yet to be persuaded about flying strutless kite.
I’ll be in OBX in April sharing condo with Madison folks riding Clouds so I hope to fly them again.

But I’d be very surprised if I could ride on strutless after I can’t ride same size Rally. In most cases it’s not being able to pull myself out of water onto the board way before not being able to fly a kite.
Last edited by grigorib on Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:41 pm, edited 10 times in total.
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a99
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Re: Strutless LEI vs foil

Postby a99 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:08 pm

And why not anyone mentioned FS Peaks for it ?

grigorib
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Gear: Kites: Slingshot Rally 5/7/9/11m, SST 5m, Turbine 9m, Flysurfer Speed4 10m standard, Peter Lynn Venom II ARC 16m

Boards: Spleene RIP 37, Flysurfer Radical6 138, Flysurfer Flydoor5 XL, Slingshot/Moses 80/82/91/105cm masts with 590/330 695/425 683s/450 679/483 wingsets, Tim's 36" woody, Slingshot Dwarfcraft Micro 3'6" 2019-2020, MBS Comp 95x

For sale: Slingshot SST 6m 2018 $480, Slingshot Turbine 5m 2017 like new $450, BROkite carbon board 140x44cm like new complete $650, Slingshot Rally 6m 2017 like new $530

Moses 590/647/330 $740, Moses 633/749/483 $790, Moses 683s/749/483 $890, 75cm alu mast $200, 80cm alu mast $260
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Re: Strutless LEI vs foil

Postby grigorib » Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:15 pm

a99 wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:08 pm
And why not anyone mentioned FS Peaks for it ?
I flew 9m Peak last summer in OBX as the last one on water on 633 wing and it was kind of very slow to turn. Well, I rode and was the only one who stayed on water but I’d love to try smaller Peak instead.
And for the OP - bigger wing is first thing to grab, in my opinion. Just as for twintip riders - first goes door board (and long lines) and only after that you mess with kite size/type

What Peak size on what line length would you fly as your lightwindiest option?
Last edited by grigorib on Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

bigtone667
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Posts: 451
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 7:24 am
Kiting since: 2013
Local Beach: Birdie Beach, Budgewoi Beach, Lakes Beach
Favorite Beaches: Umina Beach, Birdies Beach, Lake Munmorah, Canton, The Swamp, Le Morne
Style: surf, foiling, jumping, lawn mowing
Gear: BRM Cloud D's, Duotone Rebels

North Surfboards, BRM Paipo, Firewire Evo, CrazyFly Doors, Naish Monarch, Naish Hover 155/150/125/110/130, AXIS 102/101/82 Foil, Zeeko XXLW Spitfire

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Re: Strutless LEI vs foil

Postby bigtone667 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:26 pm

grigorib wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:06 pm
bigtone667 wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:26 pm
grigorib wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:25 pm

Don't do strutless. Don't do foil kites. I mean, they're flyable but you might be disappointed after flying a good structured kite.
Interesting ..... I wouldn't bother doing a structured kite in light wind because they are too heavy or a foil kite cause they are pain to swim back in.
I only fly strutless with 32m lines with a hydrofoil.

Nice thing about kiting is the journey to figure out what works for you in the places you kite.
For me it was a structured 17m Core on 40m lines which allowed to achieve better lowend than my 19m Speed3 Deluxe. Flown on same day/conditions.
And it was 17m Cloud which sucked incredibly compared to 15m Turbine and that’s how I made my choices.
Flying 15m Sonic vs my 15m Turbine - now we were talking business. But my launches are very challenging, very often those are exclusively drift launches and water landings so I opted for inflatable until I sold my 15m.

I’m not blind and I know that in La Ventana the race foils are first out on extreme light wind days. But I also know those are huge kites too. Have I had there my 15m Turbine I could have probably be first LEI on water (still after race foil kites)
But I have only one check-in and 5/7/9 plus clothes are in my carryon (so not much extra space/weight left)

Now comes strutless again, because the only strutless advantage
I can surely benefit from is they’re light/compact to travel with. And maybe I should get a single strut (I can’t stand canopy glued to water) 10m kite as my lightwindiest, and pack 4/5/7 SST and 10 single-strut instead into same carryon. But again, the 9m Rally was meant to serve as jumping kite too and I did ride it on the one of the lightest days (Jan 24) as one of the few LEIs on water and certainly the smallest kite on water that day overall.

There are lots of pros and cons for each type but I know what I value and demand, what I can live with and what will ruin my day.
Hence structured LEIs are the winner for me. I can ride in less wind with race foil kite and I’m yet to be persuaded about flying strutless kite.
I’ll be in OBX in April sharing condo with Madison folks riding Clouds so I hope to fly them again.

But I’d be very surprised if I could ride on strutless after I can’t ride same size Rally. In most cases it’s not being able to pull myself out of water onto the board way before not being able
to fly a kite.
I still have a 17m Cloud and I use when I desperately need time on the water and it is 6 or 7 knots, but it does not compare to the Cloud E series (biggest kite is 13.4m) which are just awesome to fly.

wheat
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Re: Strutless LEI vs foil

Postby wheat » Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:50 pm

Fun topic. Awesome posts.
Grigorib touched on a big one with a larger wing will help a ton in lightwind. His suggestion to get the bigger front wing for your current fuselage is good!

Pemba, I was in a similar situation to you at the start of 2019 using the same kites I twintipped.
In recreating my quiver to focus on Foiling with some surf, I went
Foil: Moses Front Wing 633, 483 Stabilizer, 91cm
Kites: 12m Strutless Gong, 8m SS SST, 5.5m Cloud

Since this is a topic about lightwind kites, the 12m gong was recently keeping me out in La Ventana on the lightest days.
If I was to rebuy, I would get a 10m. It was a funny wind window, from enough to fly to more power than you needed.
On a tight budget a lightly used strutless 10m-12m is a good tool.
On this trip, the 5.5 cloud was most used. You can rig small with a fast kite and big front wing.
I am enjoying the comments on foil kites.
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Regis-de-giens
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Re: Strutless LEI vs foil

Postby Regis-de-giens » Fri Feb 21, 2020 12:01 am

You should try a lightweight mid ratio foilkite for lightest wind. You save a lot of low end and stability, with still a very good chance to relaunch (with less wind than any other kite). And still better speed/upwind/jumps than a strutless (even if not reaching race kites levels).

Price is however higher than strutless, and return by swimming less frequent but more complex when it happens.
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PrfctChaos
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Re: Strutless LEI vs foil

Postby PrfctChaos » Fri Feb 21, 2020 12:26 am

grigorib wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:15 pm
a99 wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:08 pm
And why not anyone mentioned FS Peaks for it ?
I flew 9m Peak last summer in OBX as the last one on water on 633 wing and it was kind of very slow to turn. Well, I rode and was the only one who stayed on water but I’d love to try smaller Peak instead.
And for the OP - bigger wing is first thing to grab, in my opinion. Just as for twintip riders - first goes door board (and long lines) and only after that you mess with kite size/type

What Peak size on what line length would you fly as your lightwindiest option?
9m peak, mustv'e been a old model. Peak 4 sizes are 8 or 11m in that size range...

grigorib
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Posts: 2292
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:12 pm
Kiting since: 2009
Local Beach: OBX; Clinton Lake, IL; Lake Michigan; La Ventana, SPI; Tawas, MI
Gear: Kites: Slingshot Rally 5/7/9/11m, SST 5m, Turbine 9m, Flysurfer Speed4 10m standard, Peter Lynn Venom II ARC 16m

Boards: Spleene RIP 37, Flysurfer Radical6 138, Flysurfer Flydoor5 XL, Slingshot/Moses 80/82/91/105cm masts with 590/330 695/425 683s/450 679/483 wingsets, Tim's 36" woody, Slingshot Dwarfcraft Micro 3'6" 2019-2020, MBS Comp 95x

For sale: Slingshot SST 6m 2018 $480, Slingshot Turbine 5m 2017 like new $450, BROkite carbon board 140x44cm like new complete $650, Slingshot Rally 6m 2017 like new $530

Moses 590/647/330 $740, Moses 633/749/483 $790, Moses 683s/749/483 $890, 75cm alu mast $200, 80cm alu mast $260
.
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Re: Strutless LEI vs foil

Postby grigorib » Fri Feb 21, 2020 12:41 am

PrfctChaos wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 12:26 am
grigorib wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:15 pm
a99 wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:08 pm
And why not anyone mentioned FS Peaks for it ?
I flew 9m Peak last summer in OBX as the last one on water on 633 wing and it was kind of very slow to turn. Well, I rode and was the only one who stayed on water but I’d love to try smaller Peak instead.
And for the OP - bigger wing is first thing to grab, in my opinion. Just as for twintip riders - first goes door board (and long lines) and only after that you mess with kite size/type

What Peak size on what line length would you fly as your lightwindiest option?
9m peak, mustv'e been a old model. Peak 4 sizes are 8 or 11m in that size range...
Yes it wasn’t Peak4.
Which Peak size and line length would you take for the lightwindiest riding?

PrfctChaos
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Re: Strutless LEI vs foil

Postby PrfctChaos » Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:18 am

Armins video of the 13m peak4 actually looks very convincing. Would be interrested to try one. But dont think ill personally go larger than 5m peak (which goes well in surprisingly lightish wind, even though only using 15m lines). 8m is probably a very good light wind kite (just too close to my 9m chrono for quiver to work out). And would pair very well with a surf wing around 7-15 knots im sure (from what ive read).



For really really light wind or using small wings: then the closed cell, expensive, UL kites will be king offcoarse.


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