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an ultimate weapon for marginal wind ?

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jakemoore
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Re: an ultimate weapon for marginal wind ?

Postby jakemoore » Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:36 pm

:thumb:

It it a version 1 or 2 Wing?

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Re: an ultimate weapon for marginal wind ?

Postby foilholio » Sun Feb 23, 2020 11:00 pm

Regis-de-giens wrote: the limit is more the initial pull to raise your weight on top of the board ; here pumping, or Hydrofoil wing size , are useless :nono: ... only kite agility , ratio and surface.
Um no. There is a lot to technique and I can say with certainty if you are looping the kite you do not have the best technique. While getting your body out of the water is a barrier getting the board out of the water is the other barrier. You can simply throw a SUP at the problem of getting your body out of the water, while that doesn't solve getting the board out of the water it can help. A bigger hydrofoil though helps with both. I can say with certainty though if you can raise your body on a board with a no float board then you can also get the board out. It is possible to raise your body in parts while flying the kite for maximum power. You should have learned this decades ago when when flying a trainer kite....you know figure 8s in the window. There is other or maybe more advanced techniques like side to side or a more drawn out 8, vertical 8s, triangles and then also sheeting techniques , like perfect power, reducing stall and then inertia exchanging. Then there is other things like tension building, on and underwater pumping and of course on the wing pumping. Once on the wing you don't need the kite to pull at all because you can pump. When I do jibes in 4-5knots my kites will often completely slack line and I have to pump through the jibe as there is no other way. If doesn't matter the kite size as I am not using it.

As to the winds what kites will fly in you can test this if you have an accurate wind meter. If you can only place it low then fly the kite low. If the kite is at the same height of the wind meter then it is experiencing the same wind. Most kites can be flown actively down to 1-2knots.

I have recently been experimenting with increasing the depower limit of the mixer. I can say it makes quite a difference in light wind. It helps a lot with the kite when LE up on the water and then flying forward when deep and then also not stalling with lulls or drifting back and flying forward quicker. I highly suggest you try it. I know with older flysurfers it is quite restrained but don't know on many other kites, A15 for example is quite loose.

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Re: an ultimate weapon for marginal wind ?

Postby Regis-de-giens » Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:01 am

Ok Foilholio, i just gave my point of view , applicable for my practice/weight. So your "no" is a "yes", i think I know me better than you :wink: and it is my current limits to answer the initial question.

Please kindly open separate topic for your different technics which, to my practice and weight are clearly unuseful. Sorry to be bit rude, i think you still lack experience in Hydrofoil for now, at least in those winds:

-Intetest of loops depends on kite design, line length, wind gradient, ect... no absolute rule.
-Pumping is great to maintain planning, but not generate it without any kite. And of course i practice when necessary.
-Your mixer experiences (which your tension view is a mistake IMO) is a no go for single skin and their absence of structure...

Lastly, a large volume Sup (which would allow to climb on without kite traction) is an option, not requiring kite to get on, agree, but then catching planning may be harder and heavier to keep planning . Ok. Maybe you could show us this if you try ? And you still need a very very light kite like single skin to ride with less wind. But, personal view, kiting on a very large SUP is not interesting me, too lazy... my aim is really hydrofoiling with "little" agile board when launched. Personal choice.

Ok, i won't react more on these side notes. Please focus on the interest / questions on kiting with a big single skin, or the fun to use a paraglider, which is at any rate interesting whatever the remarks on sup or technics already discussed on many other topics.

Thank you.

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Re: an ultimate weapon for marginal wind ?

Postby foilholio » Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:38 am

It is a problem of threads diverging. I would like to start a new thread on techniques, but as you say maybe I need some more experience. I am learning so much still on my own. I was for a while wondering about some aspects of wave riding hydrofoils, like steeper faces and barrels, but have now discovered both can be done :D . I do though continually dread those sharp axe like TE tips going into my head or some other part of my body.

I will answer some of you points here because at this stage, as you brought them up here. I respect you not replying on them and won't take it at all as you conceding anything.

I think in general we have some misunderstanding. I do recognize a language barrier. I can only persist to try explain things in English as I do best. On tension "again", this is mainly a theory or way to look at things. Geometry is of course valid it's just I think tension is more valid. You can perfectly look at them in either way it's just to me tension is better. Maybe semantics a bit.

As to kite flying I am quite to very experienced, though the dynamics for hydrofoils has a little more to it. I think there is absolute rules. Things can be always broken to principles. The principle at play is the faster a kite flys and at the highest AoA it so produces the most power. It does this in the middle of the window best where it has the highest AoA. It can't remain in the middle because it is an area not big enough to fly much in. When a kite turns it loses speed, it is fact that all turning is is a variation of the speed from one side of a kite to the other. So a balance has to meet of how can a kite maintain it's maximum speed for it's longest period while being in the middle of the window. Well it would seem complicated except a person can feel the desired result being the pull or change in acceleration from the kite to them. By carefully focusing on this feel to the kite they can quickly learn techniques to get the most from the kite. The short answer is spend hours flying a trainer kite and you will naturally become adept at flying a kite for power and also many things.

On pumping I am guessing you mean on foil and not planing? You can certainly use pumping to accelerate on the foil and stay on it. I am not sure you can use it to solely get onto the foil, maybe but I have never seen it done. It can certainly be used to contribute, even with the board and your legs sunk you can pump a bit to help, though managing it while timing perfect flying is a skill that is not easy.

What I discuss on depower limits is very applicable in the lower wind. It is quite literally the difference between a kite that will fly forward or won't. On foil kites the mixer or the bar sets this limit. If you have reached the mixers limit then anything you do at the bar is pointless. You need to alter the mixer.

We largely agree on the fact that you need to get your body out of the water. It's just that I think there is more to it than that. That is why I brought up using a SUP. I have been learning to work from say getting my waist out, or more from knees to ankles out, to board out, to then on foil. Even techniques where maybe the first pass of the kite can't even raise your body, but you use it to pretension everything, second stroke raise body, third raise board, forth, fifth on etc build speed with pumping thrown in where ever.

I think techniques are perfectly valid no matter the riders weight. Things may not be linear, with advantage going to lighter people, but we are not talking massive variances here.

If you want to remain on topic, maybe answer my question or statements on topic. Like for a line plan?

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Re: an ultimate weapon for marginal wind ?

Postby Peter_Frank » Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:55 am

Must say, I find all inputs I read here seem to belong to this thread, regarding an ultimate weapon for marginal wind, and not separate threads, as the board and overall way to achieve it counts :thumb:

8) Peter

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Re: an ultimate weapon for marginal wind ?

Postby tomtom » Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:01 am

I think we all can agree that best marginal wind kite WILL BE - big high aspect single skin. Thats my prediction for long time. Who ever will first to bring such kite on market will be emh... first :)
Single skin kites are most interesting development in kites in past few years. Both ozone and FS are making high aspect SS paragliders so they already know how.
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Re: an ultimate weapon for marginal wind ?

Postby Regis-de-giens » Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:00 pm

Foilholio, I do not have a line plan, sorry ; I agree with your last email overall. Just one comment on the weight of the rider: a lower weight pushes the rider to lower wind limits, with no doubt; so the kite and rider drag downwind will behaves differently Just to say that optimum technics are not the same for every rider in marginal wind, and the optimum also depends also on kite design (ratio/camber/arch, line length).

Yes I follow your vision tomtom ; the really big advantage of this "Ozone kite" is that it is made of a light fabric of 27gr. Single skins for kitesurfing or snowkite are made of stronger fabrics, hence their weight is not better than the best light double skins in 27 gr, while stability and glide ratio are better on double skins. The other advantage is that it has a relatively high ratio for a Single skin, which should be great for this application IMO.

Not seeing those features and weights in the existing market (Peak, Shaman, Marabou) and not big enough (13m2 max), I looked at single skin paragliders : about 4 models existing ; among them, the Ozone XXlite was the lightest and I was in contact with its designer close to my area. Except a new model called run&fly, even lighter but too recent to get affordable second hand, and a bit small IMO (16m2 as far as I remember).

Years ago I tried to modify an old Flysurfer speed2 19 m (27gr) into single skin, but I failed despite the dozens of hours spent .... (not enough bridles density to support the kite without its original internal pressure between the 2 skins).

What I am still not sure is to gain actually a bit of lower end vs my current kites in the "real life": I am afraid of instabilities in a punctual 0 knot lull and poor agility . Lets wait for more tests, but on the paper, it could be a winner ...

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Re: an ultimate weapon for marginal wind ?

Postby drsurf » Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:57 pm

So if single skins are the answer to light wind kiting, and from my Peak4 experience in sizes up to 8m I can agree with that, what is the light wind limit of the new 13m Peak4 kite?
Very few have commented on how low this kite can go, but the comments that have been made are positive. And the video from Armin in the Maldives on the 13m looks to be in very light wind.
Anyone seen how low can you go?

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Re: an ultimate weapon for marginal wind ?

Postby foilholio » Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:08 pm

Armin's video just looks very wind shadowed, though still light. What is more impressive is the kite's good behavior given that.

Tomtom I thought you said doubles skins can start earlier or that they can make more peak power?

I am going to vote against the single skin concept, because I don't think it will ever be efficient enough. I also think the support of the air inside a double skin can help massively when on slack lines. I think in the end aluula like material in 10g/m2 will be the winner. Otherwise more simple low cell count could give the best weight.

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Re: an ultimate weapon for marginal wind ?

Postby Regis-de-giens » Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:00 pm

My opinion is the following on the ultimate kite, based on a long-lasting passionnated research of light wind limit started with speed 2 SA more than a decade ago, and some experience on single skins started from the first peak v1:

Real effective advantages of double skin (assuming not a too high Aspect ratio, say around 5.5 - 6 IMO):
a- better stability in punctual lulls to manage the "non-riding phases"
b- L/D ratio (the "good" part of the L/D ratio, i.e. not using a high aspect ratio in detriment of stability like a race kite) = better angle of traction to keep upwind in a harsh ratio [real wind / rider speed wind]
c- more powerfull ("round") turns for working the kite while waterstarting
d- more linear traction when crossing the middle of the window (thanks to L/D ratio)

Advantages of single skins:
e- one skin = potentially less weight for the same material = better zenith and keep kite in the air)
f- less inertia = good agility in turns to enlarge the effective traction phase in straight line
g- good drift allowing a better management of the kite hands free, useful if you need to swim backward from shore

I think that there is and will always be one show stopper which will remain anyway = the weight of the kite ; so using a 10gr/m Aluula is a great point for double skin, definitely ; but pushing this up to use it on a single skin is even better IMO ... Let's test and seen if there is still room for improvement behind a 10gr/m2 double skin !!!! limit could be a too low L/D ratio , not able to counter the (polluting) apparent wind to keep upwind. I hope to witness this (or not see this) in lower wind with my big para-foil.


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