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an ultimate weapon for marginal wind ?

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tomtom
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Re: an ultimate weapon for marginal wind ?

Postby tomtom » Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:54 pm

drsurf wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:57 pm
So if single skins are the answer to light wind kiting, and from my Peak4 experience in sizes up to 8m I can agree with that, what is the light wind limit of the new 13m Peak4 kite?
Very few have commented on how low this kite can go, but the comments that have been made are positive. And the video from Armin in the Maldives on the 13m looks to be in very light wind.
Anyone seen how low can you go?
I dont know if you are all *****. Peak is not light wind kite - it has very poor L/D to be LW kite. What part of this you dont understand? Sorry but i dont know how many times should i repeat this.
This is not my opinion its physical fact which should be obvious from just looking at the kite.
In plain english this low L/D mean it has very high drag a very low lift=pull. In light wind you need exact opposite. Its only advantage for LW is zenith stability. There are kites much better for this already.
Competent 10m UL medium aspect closed cell will have better low end than 13m Peak. What im talking about is non existent ultralite high aspect single skin which will have much better L/D than current peak and will have better zenith stability than todays best and lightest closed cells. L/D will be still better on closed cells but with balanced design and for lower /not racing/ speeds it should be o.k.

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Re: an ultimate weapon for marginal wind ?

Postby foilholio » Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:10 am

To me the advantage to the faster kite is not that I can ride faster like race with it but that I can fly it fast around the window to make more power and then also depower it more and also go upwind faster. It has more range.

Most all foil kites over pull the tips, have too much AoA or camber there, which worsens L/D. It's a fact of the varying cord but also desired to get tighter turns. You can flatten the wing on the tips, simplest way is the first disconnect the tip Z. Other is to extend multiple Z bridles in the area. Of note this is not new many flysurfers now leave to last cell unbridled, and wings for a long time have known to have wash out or reduced AoA on the tips of a wing.

To me although a 10g/m2 single skin will be incredible, more advantage will go to the doubleskin. I think this because the benefits to reducing weight are diminishing. That is if you gain say 2 knots low end for halving the weight, halving it again only gets you 1 knot more. Or something like that.

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Re: an ultimate weapon for marginal wind ?

Postby uncool » Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:50 am

Small Peaks are better than big Peaks. People like the 3 4 and 5. Dr Surf likes the 8m peak. By all accounts the 11 and 13 fly like an ostrich. Now we are cutting the bottom off a glider to make a bigger Peak? Maybe it would be better to stack 3 or 4 smaller Peaks!

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Re: an ultimate weapon for marginal wind ?

Postby PrfctChaos » Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:07 am

uncool wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:50 am
Small Peaks are better than big Peaks. People like the 3 4 and 5. Dr Surf likes the 8m peak. By all accounts the 11 and 13 fly like an ostrich. Now we are cutting the bottom off a glider to make a bigger Peak? Maybe it would be better to stack 3 or 4 smaller Peaks!
This might actually (accidentally?) Be a good idea. All of the stacked kite videos i have seen look terrible because the kites are wobbling around and fighting each other when turning (due to the inertia of the kites). Peaks with their non-existent inertia could be worth a shot. 5+8 Mmmm

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Re: an ultimate weapon for marginal wind ?

Postby drsurf » Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:19 pm

tomtom wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:54 pm
drsurf wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 2:57 pm
So if single skins are the answer to light wind kiting, and from my Peak4 experience in sizes up to 8m I can agree with that, what is the light wind limit of the new 13m Peak4 kite?
Very few have commented on how low this kite can go, but the comments that have been made are positive. And the video from Armin in the Maldives on the 13m looks to be in very light wind.
Anyone seen how low can you go?
I dont know if you are all *****. Peak is not light wind kite - it has very poor L/D to be LW kite. What part of this you dont understand? Sorry but i dont know how many times should i repeat this.
This is not my opinion its physical fact which should be obvious from just looking at the kite.
In plain english this low L/D mean it has very high drag a very low lift=pull. In light wind you need exact opposite. Its only advantage for LW is zenith stability. There are kites much better for this already.
Competent 10m UL medium aspect closed cell will have better low end than 13m Peak. What im talking about is non existent ultralite high aspect single skin which will have much better L/D than current peak and will have better zenith stability than todays best and lightest closed cells. L/D will be still better on closed cells but with balanced design and for lower /not racing/ speeds it should be o.k.
tomtom, in my experience and location you're wrong about the Peak4, it is a light wind kite. I was trying to think of a way to put it more diplomatically but whatever ***** meant led me to think I need to be more direct. By the way all of what I cover below relates to various kitefoilers a using a surf foil between 1000 and 1250 sq cm, (and a Zeeko Spitfire), with a wind strength measured by hand held and local meteorological wind meters of between 6 and 10 knots. Kiters weigh between 65kg and 85kg and 5m & 8m Peak4 kites.

In my experience many kiters including Peak4 kiters couldn't give a rats arse about the the L/D ratio. It's the experience of the way the Peak4 kite flies in comparison to other kites that matters to the end user. In case you think I lack the kites to compare, I sell the Flysurfer range and use the comparable "Competent 10m UL medium aspect closed cell" kite, a 10m Soul. In my experience and that of others the 8m Peak4 performs better in light winds for the criteria I've quoted than the 10m Soul.

If you want to go fast and for a long distance in a relatively straight line with a small surface area, high aspect ratio freeride or race foil, in light winds, the Soul is great. The apparent wind with the Soul will take you through lulls way below what you think you can kite in and for this activity L/D is a valid criteria. However a number of kiters at my local beach have similar kites to the Soul such as Ozone Hyperlinks in larger than 10m and they've been used a couple of times and rarely seen again even when the wind is light. The experience in light winds kiters in my local area want is enough power to get up on the foil, simplicity, ease of use, responsiveness, great gust handling, fast turning, fantastic drift for wave riding, ability to stay airborne in a big lull and an affordable price. In the light wind scenario I'm describing the Peak4 delivers in all these criteria. Just in case you think where I live is a freakish area with unusual kiters, because I sell the Peak4 kites well outside my local area I also get feedback from my customers, and you won't be surprised to hear that they like the Peak4 in light winds too. In the Peak4 thread you'll also find Peak4 kiters loving the light wind performance.

There are few kiters in Australia that can afford to pay $3000 plus for a lightwind twin skin kite with your "perfect" L/D ratios. If they would like to, please contact me as the new Flysurfer Sonic 3 is now out and I would love to sell some and have them out on the water in Australia :) It seems the market here is a lot smaller for efficient, high aspect twin skin foils in my experience. Even if price was more competitive, the average LEI kitefoiler on a surf foil, given a choice between the characteristics of an appropriate size Peak4 and an efficient twin skin foil kite, would choose the Peak4.

Having come from an inland location many years ago, I can understand there is a different light wind criteria which applies which does favour an efficient, modern foil kite like the Soul. Having a kite which can fall to the water when the wind dies completely and then be relaunched 5 minutes later when a light breeze returns is great on an inland lake with erratic and light winds. But that's not the light wind criteria I'm addressing.

tomtom i respect a lot of your comments about the Peak4 as you have been a long time user and appreciate what the Peak4 can do. But when it comes to light wind kiting with criteria I've quoted you're way off. And when it comes to comparing L/D and user experience, the user wins just about every time.

BTW after banging on about light wind, for the last 3 days I've been riding the 3m Peak4 in 15 to 20+ knots on my Moses 679 surf foil - fantastic :D
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tomtom
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Re: an ultimate weapon for marginal wind ?

Postby tomtom » Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:31 pm

Sorry for ***** - honestly. And sorry for disagree with you.

I have 3 peak 4 - I tried or own almost all other foil kites - Soul Sonic, Sonic 2, Hyperlink, V1 V2, kitech FRS and many other. Im quite competent light wind rider - and small kite rider always riding smallest kite on whatever spot. I was one of first peak4 HF adaptors and wrote numerous peak praising threads. Im really Peak aficionado without any commercial interest. Judging pure from your video post - you have no idea what 6 knot wind is. There is NO WAY anybody can kite with 8m or even 5m Peak can ride on HF in 6knts no matter weight. BTW Soul kite isnt very good example - because it turns so slow that is hard to work kite - it isnt very light either. Even though i think that Soul 10 is WAY more powerfull than peak 8. I mean power which can be used in light wind /from active kite flying/

I will not longer argue about this topic anymore. Peace and all best

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Re: an ultimate weapon for marginal wind ?

Postby Regis-de-giens » Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:21 pm

Sorry I made a mistake on the weight; it is lighter : 1.37 kg

Here is a film with a bit more images and showing the launch, landing, and final punition in the water ...



feature summary:
- paraglider 19m2, (Ozone XXlite v1)
- full ultra light cloth of 27 gr/m2
- very light weight of 1.37 kg + about 100 gr for the home made speed system (A/B:Z)
- Aspect ratio is very good for a Single skin : 5.4

What about calling it "Para-foil" ? :P

No idea if I will actually gain some low end and if there is an actual interest of it ; I need to test in less than 5-6 knot now
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loco4viento (Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:34 pm)
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Trent hink
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Re: an ultimate weapon for marginal wind ?

Postby Trent hink » Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:04 pm

I have peak4 in 4,5, and 8 meter and i agree with tomtom. The peaks stay up in incredibly light wind, but they sit pretty far back in the wind window and they do not accelerate or or lift the way most other kites do. They drift awesome and will fly in just about any wind, but there are far better kites for really light wind.

I stand by my estimate that the peak4 8 meter is good in 10 knots with a foil. It might be ok in 9.5 knots, but below that most kiters will not be able to get up to ride. And sure, you might be getting 6 or 7 knot readings on your hand-held wind meter, but there is no doubt that the real wind at kite-level is more than 9 knots if you are average weight and able to get up on your foil.

Anytime i am flying my peaks along any other kite, they always beat me upwind, but they just can't drift downwind the way you can on a peak.
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Peter_Frank (Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:09 pm)
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Re: an ultimate weapon for marginal wind ?

Postby Peter_Frank » Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:08 pm

Impressive Regis, how long lines, and do the inner tip fold when looped?

Looking forward to follow how low you will be able to go.

8) Peter
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Regis-de-giens (Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:39 pm)
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Regis-de-giens
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Re: an ultimate weapon for marginal wind ?

Postby Regis-de-giens » Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:59 pm

Thank you Peter, that is always encouraging to listen your greetings;

just to comment on Trent Hink, I agree with you on peaks for light wind (like any existing single skin on the market); to me very light larger double skins are better as soon as you can ride with ; from my reading and tests, peak do not allow to get lower wind due to lack of surface, too low ratio, and weight saving which is not significant dur to heavy cloth; this is not the case of this Ozone which is the opposite (large + Light + higher Aspect ratio); hence my hopes and "investment" on this particular custom kite;

Peter: I had 25 m thin lines; I started on a football stadium with 1 meter lines, then on the beach with 10 meters, then now 25 meters for this first trial on water; then I suppose I will add lines , up to + 6 to 10 meters , to be tested ; but I must keep in mind it is a paraglider which is originally designed to lift a 90 kg have man ... :shake:

I did not try loops : in 6 knots power is too high ! but more seriously, the turn is not good for now : it turn like a held-loop (inner tip backstairs )+ these tips instability , so since I did not need any to waterstart, I did not try. The tip folding was not really a problem in straight line or to go to the water actually, to my own surprise.

My next try should be in 5 or less, longuet line probably, then here I hope to try a loop ; I tried it in about 3 knots on the beach (good zenith ability but my speed system need more tuning) but on short lines to "debug" the mammoth , too short to loop.


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