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Considering a switch to foil kites

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Foil
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Re: Considering a switch to foil kites

Postby Foil » Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:14 am

its not true that set up /pack down times are faster for foil kites, if anything it is much slower on pack down, unless we are looking at tiny 5mtr foil kites, in fact if you time a 12mtr foil from the moment it is landed full of trapped air, it can take a good 5mins or more as the air inside takes a good while to get rid of, and rushing the job is not a great idea for many reasons,
being neat using care to store bridal lines is so important,
Set up also can take a while longer if you take the appropriate care checking for sticky pulleys which many forget at big risk to premature line wear, and being very careful to ensure the bridal is just right without little tangles,
and I add that I am not a fan of leaving the bar attached and roll up in the kite method, as it prevents appropriate bar care and can cause tangles in the set up stage.
but all that said, whats the dig deal with if its faster or slower to set up, pack down, its like the point some make about one screw mast mounting speed advantage, really? is that key to the sport? take your time to set up and pack down, its safer.

that said, what is great is being able to walk to the waters edge with just your choice of kite (much less chance of taking the wrong size when using foil kites) clamped under your arm and bar in hand, foil board resting on your shoulder,
no pump
no bag
you are able to walk right down the beach to near the waters edge, set up and go, nothing left be stolen or washed away by the incoming tide, nothing left to be abused by a random dog or two, much less chance of the need to come ashore to change kite size.
this last point of difference is a great feature of foil kite use for me, and if your also using ultra light carbon foil bard kit, its a joy walking a long distance to low tide areas.
of course if your into the very good single skin flysurfer peak foil kites then yes, set up pack down is silly quick and easy, you have to try one to believe just how easy and quick these kites are to set up and pack away, I flew TomToms 4mtr peak kite a few weeks back at Flag beach, they maybe a real game changer for some strapless foil board users for many reasons, great kites, (for some)

jatem
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Re: Considering a switch to foil kites

Postby jatem » Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:15 am

Foil wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:14 am
of course if your into the very good single skin flysurfer peak foil kites then yes, set up pack down is silly quick and easy, you have to try one to believe just how easy and quick these kites are to set up and pack away, I flew TomToms 4mtr peak kite a few weeks back at Flag beach, they maybe a real game changer for some strapless foil board users for many reasons, great kites, (for some)
The Peak 4 is a revolution for foiling. If the OP is using 7m + 9m rebels on hf, then a change to a peak 5m would be a total game changer. The peak4 is cheap, has no cells or bladder to burst, much faster to launch and pack up than anything else, gentle power during loops, turns fast, drifts like crazy as you head downwind, doesn't front stall, handles gusty wind like nothing else, and responds like an inflatable should.

A soul is a powerful boosting upwind machine, and most ppl will find a soul very technical to fly on the hf. You'll be planning transitions so that you can follow the soul, and keep the lines tensioned.

The peak is completely different, super easy to fly, very liberating, you can almost ignore the kite and focus on riding the hf.

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Re: Considering a switch to foil kites

Postby drsurf » Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:21 am

jatem wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 9:15 am
Foil wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:14 am
of course if your into the very good single skin flysurfer peak foil kites then yes, set up pack down is silly quick and easy, you have to try one to believe just how easy and quick these kites are to set up and pack away, I flew TomToms 4mtr peak kite a few weeks back at Flag beach, they maybe a real game changer for some strapless foil board users for many reasons, great kites, (for some)
The Peak 4 is a revolution for foiling. If the OP is using 7m + 9m rebels on hf, then a change to a peak 5m would be a total game changer. The peak4 is cheap, has no cells or bladder to burst, much faster to launch and pack up than anything else, gentle power during loops, turns fast, drifts like crazy as you head downwind, doesn't front stall, handles gusty wind like nothing else, and responds like an inflatable should.

A soul is a powerful boosting upwind machine, and most ppl will find a soul very technical to fly on the hf. You'll be planning transitions so that you can follow the soul, and keep the lines tensioned.

The peak is completely different, super easy to fly, very liberating, you can almost ignore the kite and focus on riding the hf.
Exactly :D

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Re: Considering a switch to foil kites

Postby cwood » Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:53 am

Alvaro wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:17 pm
Thank you very much everyone for the well intentioned and very useful comments.

- Regarding the cold water, after 20 years living in Miami I just don’t feel like kiting in cold water, I am not brave enough. So that is not an issue.
- I think it’s a good idea not to get rid of my Rebels yet, and have them coexist with my new foil kite.
- It seems that a Soul 8m could replace wind-range wise my 7 and 9m Rebels.
- It seems that there is more than meets the eye when it comes to totally dominating a foil kite and it requires hours in the water with them.
- My 2018 (I think they are 2018) Rebels do fall from the sky although they relaunch easily unless the 5th line (I really dislike the 5th line) gets in the way.
- A foil kite doesn’t fall from the sky that easily, and today’s foils relaunch well.
- I am not looking to ride in <12/13 knots, I am not into super light wind.
- I am talking specifically for Foiling (no Twin Tips or Surf Boards)

So, looks like a 8M Soul could be it? Again, thank you everyone for the help.

8m is what I would start with. I have 8,10,12,15. Likely selling the 15 and 12 and getting a 6. 6, 8, 10 is really all you need from 7 kts to 30. 8m I call the universal kite....you can fly it down to nothing and it has great depower. The Souls have a great power spike in loops for light wind starts.

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Re: Considering a switch to foil kites

Postby kiteykitekite » Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:28 pm

Foil wrote: its not true that set up /pack down times are faster for foil kites, if anything it is much slower on pack down, unless we are looking at tiny 5mtr foil kites, in fact if you time a 12mtr foil from the moment it is landed full of trapped air, it can take a good 5mins or more as the air inside takes a good while to get rid of
Foil wrote: I add that I am not a fan of leaving the bar attached and roll up in the kite method, as it prevents appropriate bar care and can cause tangles in the set up stage.
:roll: :lol:

You can roll the air out you know right?

You can wash your bar if you leave it connected too you know right?

and

Leaving the lines attached reduces the amount of tangles not increases.

We must live in alternate universes because I can barely find a thing to agree with you on. I would say yes foil kites can take longer to pack down, but at most this is a few seconds more spent handling bridles. But if you use the superior self landing ability and can land in an "ideal" spot for a foil kite which is in a wind shadow on grass, then no they pack down much much faster.

I must say after 1000's of launches and landings the time saved is massive. In fact just having to pump a kite is such a pain in comparison, that alone is enough to not enjoy kiting for me.

Your concerns about stuck pulleys are in reality not even worth checking if you rinse your bar. Maybe if you have Orbit blocks it is? But for the better pulleys it is not.
downunder wrote: Let me know when the internal panels blow and how much will cost to repair
This is a problem for foil kites, but not for single skins like peak 4 etc as they are immune to crashing. While I haven't had this occur to foils in 10m or over it does happen to smaller ones though not in lighter wind. It would be great if it was solved and a few solutions have been tried, the best is some sort of valve in the TE that opens.
downunder wrote: Or that a fast rigging/packup is a myth
Well if from kite rolled and lines wrap to kite flying in 30-60seconds and then from kite flying to landed, rolled and bar wrapped in 1 to 2 mins is not fast then I would like to see a tube setup and packed quicker than that. :D
downunder wrote:Does a heli-loop produces a pull?
Do you mean a propeller loop? No they don't. Heliloops are for landing jumps.
downunder wrote: About the rigging up the Soul, I actually find it frustrating when packing up, it takes way more time to pack up than with LEI.
Packing a foil kite certainly can. How are you doing it? Are you wrapping the bridles onto the bar? Opening the deflate first for big kites?
downunder wrote: In 12kn 8m cannot be looped fast enough to pull on the strapless board.
My 6m does just fine and in much less wind than that. But then a loop is not the way to get the most power from a kite.
downunder wrote: In 12kn an 10 or 12m foil CAN be looped, but more often will heli-loop with no power.
Ok I think you mean a propeller loop. Yes you can do that with foil kites and is another good reason to not use loops to get the most power from a kite. Foils particularly with light bar pressure can be easy to over sheet and kill the power. There is some simple modifications to increase the bar pressure if you would like, they will also drastically increase the turning speed and response too.
downunder wrote: When doing that, it will drop back in the wind window resulting in slack lines and taking forever to move to zenith.
Your kite may not have enough depower. Foil kites can benefit and particularly for hydrofoils to have increased depower.
downunder wrote: Or, we can sometimes move it to the edge of the window, which again takes forever to climb back.
Yes it sounds like you have a depower problem. This is common to flysurfers.
downunder wrote: All this takes a huge time when fighting a HF as well. And a HF will not wait for us.
Hmm I am not really aware of this. I must say I have some issues timing and positioning the hydrofoil in the shallows say 0.5-1m in between waves. I always start with the kite high, best to have gravity on your side. While man made laws can be broken, physics have proven much harder :-)
downunder wrote: The faster we can loop it, the more nimble the kite is through the wind window, the easier is to water start and keep it in the air luls.
Not really. I mean you state the problem with propeller loops before and they are the fastest loops. A loop is a turn and a turn is one side of a kite going slower than the other which is to say when a kite is turning it is not going as fast as it can. If a kite is not going as fast as it can it is not producing the most power or pull it can. So in short a turning kite is producing less than ideal pull.

You will find weight as ratio to lift is the critical factor to a kite staying in the air. If weight is less than lift kite flies. If weight is greater than lift then kite falls. If you would like me to discuss this more I can.

Lastly I will say foil kites develop more pull for their size than tubes for the same reason they jump better and win races. They are more efficient. If you would like me to explain more on this just ask.

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Re: Considering a switch to foil kites

Postby drsurf » Thu Mar 12, 2020 3:14 pm

Good video review about foil kites for foil boards

kiteykitekite
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Re: Considering a switch to foil kites

Postby kiteykitekite » Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:04 am

I wonder if a double skin close to peak4 in weight would dethrone it a bit :-)

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Re: Considering a switch to foil kites

Postby PrfctChaos » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:26 am

kiteykitekite wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:04 am
I wonder if a double skin close to peak4 in weight would dethrone it a bit :-)
I cannot really see how. If your light doubleskin was made from very thin fragile cloth, then it would be prone to damage (normal use) and internal damage / popping ribs (if crashed). The lack of worrying about internal damage is one of the best features of the peak.

On the other hand, if your light fabric was also magically strong, then you could still make a even lighter Peak time from that material....

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Re: Considering a switch to foil kites

Postby tomtom » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:59 am

Imo its the trapped air inside that making difference /handling and drift/. Kite weight alone can be "good enough"
There will be imo very little difference after some point /i.e. 1,5 kg vs 0,5 kg/. Think how heavy tubes are and its not such handling problem. Only real problem is static hang.

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Re: Considering a switch to foil kites

Postby drsurf » Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:37 pm

kiteykitekite wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:04 am
I wonder if a double skin close to peak4 in weight would dethrone it a bit :-)
Hi kiteykitekite. Have you ever tried a Peak4? I would have thought as someone who comments on foil kites you would have familiarised yourself with the Peak4.

If you, (and anyone else who is interested), haven't tried a Peak4, do so. There is a lot of positive feedback from Peak4 users for good reason. They are not a magic kite but the lightweight single skin design is freakishly good as a foil surf/freeride kite. The phenomenal drift, depower and windrange has to be experienced to be believed.

If you want to know about a Peak4 kite, beg, borrow and/or try a demo. You won't regret it :)


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