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Foiling 360 - Kite and Bar Position Tips (with video)

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robclaisse
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Foiling 360 - Kite and Bar Position Tips (with video)

Postby robclaisse » Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:48 am

I've posted a couple of videos on Facebook/Instagram the last few days with some tips for the foiling 360 (the versions starting on your heelside, entering by carving upwind and no foot changes). I focused on the bar position in the first video, as this is really crucial to allow the kite to get in the correct position, to help move your bodyweight around and then to give you the power and pull for the last 180. I won't regurgitate it all here as it's quite long but the video and post is below (worth checking out the 6 image sequence as that details the 3 different bar positions at the various point so the 360):



Then several people asked about the actual kite movement, which is obviously really important - something I always show synced to the main angle in my premium videos but this was just a quick free social post to give a couple of specific tips. Anyway, I did have a good 360 drone shot from last year and put that together with a few graphics to give some indication of the kite movement - watch out for the moment the kite hits 12 and luffs further upwind, you see the kite material flutter, that is the critical point and is caused by sheeting out fully. Video below, again with some additional info in the post description:



There has been some great discussion on these videos on FB across my posts and various groups and someone suggests posting here so hopefully a few points that might help someone with there 360s.

As I hinted at about this is just one type of 360, the one everyone learns first and a great stepping stone to learning tacks. I am pulling together some clips to show the various other 360 variations but most of those require being able to do tacks first and need a pretty good kite awareness - lookout for that video on my socials in the next few weeks.
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Re: Foiling 360 - Kite and Bar Position Tips (with video)

Postby alowishus » Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:54 pm

Rob, thanks for posting. I found the video at the bottom of your post really helpful :thumb:

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Re: Foiling 360 - Kite and Bar Position Tips (with video)

Postby DukeSilver » Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:08 am

Wow, where was this video when I was learning these?! Great footage and should really help those wanting to learn this fun and deceptively easy move.

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Re: Foiling 360 - Kite and Bar Position Tips (with video)

Postby alowishus » Wed Mar 18, 2020 2:13 pm

Ok, after a few sessions of dedication now I’m starting to get the idea of 360s. One direction only at this stage.

I’m riding a moses 633, strapless, and use LEIs (wave kites in the smaller sizes).

Having reasonable speed and good power going into the upwind carve made a big difference and it’s starting to make sense, kind of, but my circles are quite tight and not well rounded. Certainly nothing like Rob’s video. I have very little momentum at the “top” of the 360. Same for 180s. I’m still on the foil but you can almost pivot turn on the 633.

What is the key to doing a large radius? And maintaining speed throughout the turn?

Is it my gear or my technique? Should I change to a faster wing?

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Re: Foiling 360 - Kite and Bar Position Tips (with video)

Postby Herman » Wed Mar 18, 2020 3:46 pm

Thanks for a great video Rob. It has helped me smooth out my wheel based 360 and 180.

For info my mind set had been to send the kite to what I call BZ (just behind zenith) and sheet out for the carve into wind then pull to complete the loop once turned to see kite. This was ok for the 360 but the kite was often too far upwind for a decent amount of power for a redirect to 180.

Now my mind set is to fly (subtly different to sending) the kite to FZ , sheeted out, for the carve then fly it accross Z for the line pass. This helps prevent the kite getting too far upwind if you want a redirect to 180 rather than complete the loop for a 360.

Probably only makes sense to me but put it out there as food for thought for anybody working on this manoeuvre.

Thanks again for the tutorial Rob. Regards Herman.

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Re: Foiling 360 - Kite and Bar Position Tips (with video)

Postby LeoLeal » Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:53 pm

How long does it take to complete this trick, im trying this for more than 10 hours. I'm struggling when I go upwind my board landed as my kite didn't finish the loop, maybe I'm doing the 360 in a short circle.

My front wing has 700 cm², a large one will be better?

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Re: Foiling 360 - Kite and Bar Position Tips (with video)

Postby Peter_Frank » Thu Apr 02, 2020 6:29 pm

LeoLeal wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:53 pm
How long does it take to complete this trick, im trying this for more than 10 hours. I'm struggling when I go upwind my board landed as my kite didn't finish the loop, maybe I'm doing the 360 in a short circle.

My front wing has 700 cm², a large one will be better?

It took me much longer, and I often miss, still...
And rubbish on one side, usually.

And many never learn... :-?

If you have straps, it is a piece of cake and will come very fast, it is just like a backroll on the surface :thumb:

But strapless, a lot more difficult.

10 hours is nothing, just the initial try and see how it goes, IMO.

Even WHEN you can do it, then like some of my friends, me included, some days it simply does not work at all, other days all 360s works :rollgrin:

There will always be many who learned it fast, who like to answer here, but the really interesting part is all those taking long to learn :-?

No it will not be easier with a bigger wing, doesn't really matter here, so just keep trying....

8) Peter

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Re: Foiling 360 - Kite and Bar Position Tips (with video)

Postby robclaisse » Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:02 pm

LeoLeal wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:53 pm
How long does it take to complete this trick, im trying this for more than 10 hours. I'm struggling when I go upwind my board landed as my kite didn't finish the loop, maybe I'm doing the 360 in a short circle.

My front wing has 700 cm², a large one will be better?
Yeah 10 hours for any of these more advanced tricks is just the start. Get to 100 and then start questioning it if you are not getting anywhere near it. There is an element of just needing to bang your head against the wall to start with though I think we can help you get a bit closer.

And Peter made some good points though I will disagree with him on a couple of things :D :
1. A bigger wing did work for me but it's definitely not a silver bullet for everyone and technique is the most important. A larger for carvy wing helped me because I could go in with less speed and be less aggressive, make mistakes and keep foiling, part of that might be due to my weight (105kg) which is above average :wink: The type of 700cm2 wing you have might make more of an impact and also the kite sizes you are riding and the wind strength. Personally when learning all the tacks I found it easier with my 8m kite in 15-20 knots. When it's lighter, smaller mistakes are more likely to have you come off the foil, which isn't a deal breaker but the added friction of the water can cause you to get pulled off if your kite is not in the correct position - when foiling you can muscle it around through some mistakes. In strong winds with small kites, the speed of the kites (easiler to fly them too quickly overhead) and lack of lift range was more tricky for me, but again part of this is due to weight.
2. I think it can be bad to think of a strapped 360 as similar to a backroll on a twin tip. If you attach it like the backroll your kite movement will be quite different, maybe you'll pop the wing out a bit and ultimately you can muscle it around but what you're doing is not really learning the key technique for the foiling 360, which is the correct kite movement and positioning. That ability to get the kite properly lofting overhead and pulling you through the carve is very different to a backroll where the kite actually ends up pulling you slightly downwind. So when we teach this we try and get people to separate the backroll and the 360, as it seems to get people to the end result far quicker and stops introducing bad habits.

Back to the description you have of what is going wrong for you:
LeoLeal wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:53 pm
I'm struggling when I go upwind my board landed as my kite didn't finish the loop, maybe I'm doing the 360 in a short circle.
By "my board landed" do you mean it touched down (you came off the foil, the board is then riding on the water)?
And what direct is your board at this point? if you look at the video and the images in the Facebook post I've broken the 360 in to 3 parts, where is this happening?
Then I'll be able to work out the time of your kite if its already loop at this point but need a bit more info to work it out
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Re: Foiling 360 - Kite and Bar Position Tips (with video)

Postby robclaisse » Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:48 pm

alowishus wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 2:13 pm
Ok, after a few sessions of dedication now I’m starting to get the idea of 360s. One direction only at this stage.

I’m riding a moses 633, strapless, and use LEIs (wave kites in the smaller sizes).

Having reasonable speed and good power going into the upwind carve made a big difference and it’s starting to make sense, kind of, but my circles are quite tight and not well rounded. Certainly nothing like Rob’s video. I have very little momentum at the “top” of the 360. Same for 180s. I’m still on the foil but you can almost pivot turn on the 633.

What is the key to doing a large radius? And maintaining speed throughout the turn?

Is it my gear or my technique? Should I change to a faster wing?
Sorry for the slow reply, been a busy few weeks.
It's not an issue with your kit, the 633 is a great wing for learning 360 but it is a very pivoty, yaw-y wing so it will naturally want to turn tight if you let it - which is largely due to pushing too much with your back foot. The tighter 360 is a slightly different beast, as you'll need good balance as you'll be pivoting under the kite and not be able to hang off it as much. You'll also need a kite that will loop quick and tight - so you need to get the kite to 12 and lofting overhead, carve and pivot and you'll get to the 180 positions very quickly, you're gonna pivot that next 180 very quickly now so you need to sheet in full and pull really hard so the kite gets round and is there to keep you moving. Next time I'm on the water (not sure when with the lockdown in the Uk) I'll try and film one, it will help me confirm all these points too.

The 633 will do a wider arc but you have to direct it into that kind of carve
- try entering with a bit more speed, so you really feel a good amount of weight on your front foot,
- drive the kite up to 12,
- then initiate the carve with your back foot but be gentle, it will carve pretty easily,
- sheet out and get your weight forward and fully over that front foot, this will allow you to control the radius of the carve far easier.

Have a good go with this technique and play around with weight on your back foot as you start carving and transferring to your front foot, hopefully, you'll start to feel the difference and be able to adapt your stance overall. Let us know how you get on.
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Re: Foiling 360 - Kite and Bar Position Tips (with video)

Postby robclaisse » Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:01 pm

Herman wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 3:46 pm
Thanks for a great video Rob. It has helped me smooth out my wheel based 360 and 180.

For info my mind set had been to send the kite to what I call BZ (just behind zenith) and sheet out for the carve into wind then pull to complete the loop once turned to see kite. This was ok for the 360 but the kite was often too far upwind for a decent amount of power for a redirect to 180.

Now my mind set is to fly (subtly different to sending) the kite to FZ , sheeted out, for the carve then fly it accross Z for the line pass. This helps prevent the kite getting too far upwind if you want a redirect to 180 rather than complete the loop for a 360.

Probably only makes sense to me but put it out there as food for thought for anybody working on this manoeuvre.

Thanks again for the tutorial Rob. Regards Herman.
Hey Herman, yeah that makes sense - I'll be honest I haven't thought to looked at it in detail but you've got me thinking! What I find is that the H2T 180 kite movement is slightly different but once you have that dialled you can change to the 360 midway every time but you are right, in certain situations the kite movement for the 360 can be different and harder to get out halfway through - I find this more noticeable when underpowered or in lighter winds. Quite often when I try my first H2T 180 underpowered in a session, I'll realise halfway round it's not gonna work and I continue round and do the 360 to save it. Then go in again, tweak the kite movement and make the 180. Thinking it through the key is that for the 180 you have to shift your body right up over the board, and the key is getting your weight right over that front foot and as you say if the kite is very so slightly too far behind you can't get the weight forward in time. I'll try and find a kite shot of both and compare them!


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