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extend the low end; single skin, cloud, foil kite?

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kiteykitekite
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Re: extend the low end; single skin, cloud, foil kite?

Postby kiteykitekite » Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:14 pm

Peter_Frank wrote: Of course in light wind, every kite can be hot launched.
Foil kites hot launch fine in high wind too.
Peter_Frank wrote: But normal foil kites or race kites, can not, IF they are inflated.
No of course they can. You can depower or stall them.
Peter_Frank wrote: But when inflated, you will get spanked seriously and dragged, if you try to hotlaunch.
It is possible to get dragged, on sand is not an issue just dig your heals in and enjoy the ride. The worst you should be dragged is a couple of meters. Otherwise if near or on rocks you should maybe take other precautions.
BigSky wrote: I hated trying to pre-inflate a Soul in light winds (no pre inflating a Peak 4)
No preinflation usually on foils including the soul either. The worst you need is the vent area preinflated which is usually just making sure the fabric is open and inflating to the wind, it will usually do this by itself with no help. Yes foils take time to inflate, but at most 10-15seconds in the lightest wind for the biggest ones.
merl wrote: Regarding "socks" for the tips, I was thinking the same. Would be interesting to hear how well this works. Another idea would be lightweight foam instead of air. I think there was a video of someone doing this for an earlier model.

Anyone willing to get the scissors/sewing machine out?
Foam will be far too heavy. Some type of bladder would be better like balloons. Any kite maker or repairer could easily do the socks. Should take less than an hour.

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Re: extend the low end; single skin, cloud, foil kite?

Postby Peter_Frank » Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:28 pm

Rubbish, to say you can depower a high aspect foil kite and hot launch it in high wind, without risks, is plain wrong...

If you use really short lines, yes, or if you stall it, yes, and if not inflated, yes, but on normal lines, depowered, don't do it :wink:

8) Peter

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Re: extend the low end; single skin, cloud, foil kite?

Postby kiteykitekite » Tue Mar 17, 2020 11:44 pm

No I said you have depower and stall. Nuance Peter nuance. I also said nothing about a specific kite except foils in general. Some kites are harder than others, single skins for example are harder but all have a range and technique.

I personally only hot launch in all winds. The wind is not what is important but the pull from the kite.

There is other factors too. Maybe you do not have the full depower available at the kite or bar.

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Re: extend the low end; single skin, cloud, foil kite?

Postby OzBungy » Wed Mar 18, 2020 3:47 am

I think you would be much better off working on your skills and understanding your current gear instead of buying specialist kites.

The OR Flite is an excellent light wind kite. If you can tether or drift launch then you should have no trouble keeping the kite in the air.

If there is literally too little wind to keep the kite in the air then there is too little wind to water start and foil. You need some power for forward motion.

Almost any kite can be hot launched or reverse launched. You just need to understand how to do it. Unless you're mega powered up then you're likely to be foiling with a kite half the size of TT or surfboard riders. If you can't hot launch that safely then you need a lot more practice.

Rule 1 of foiling and kiteboarding, if you understand your gear and how it works then you can make it do almost anything you want. Buying more stuff just gets in the way.

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Re: extend the low end; single skin, cloud, foil kite?

Postby drsurf » Wed Mar 18, 2020 2:44 pm

vakiter wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:16 pm
would ozone access and peak4 be similar in regard to launch flexibility and light wind potential?
No. The Ozone Access is a twin skin foil kite whereas the Peak4 is a single skin foil kite more like the Ozone Explore. The last person I saw using an Ozone Explore tried my Peak4 5m kite and then bought one from me :) I don't know what happened to the Explore.

The launch flexibility with the Peak4 is because of its instant depower, gust handling ability and light weight which keeps it airborne in very light breezes. It's also durable and inexpensive which relieves some of the mental stress when launching in challenging, kite eating locations.

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Re: extend the low end; single skin, cloud, foil kite?

Postby drsurf » Wed Mar 18, 2020 2:57 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:33 pm
How come you can hotlaunch a Peak4 easy?

Havent flown one, so might be the reason...

Of course in light wind, every kite can be hot launched.

But normal foil kites or race kites, can not, IF they are inflated.
When not inflated, you can hot launch these in quite some wind, no problem at all, and no powerspike whatsoever, great.
But when inflated, you will get spanked seriously and dragged, if you try to hotlaunch.

And as a single skin kite is "instantly" inflated (dont need inflation), wouldnt it pull like crazy going up in the powerzone if some wind?
Or is the peak power of a Peak that much lower, so not a problem like on double skin foil kites?

Just wondering why it is possible without getting dragged like you will on LEIs or inflated foil kites :roll:

8) Peter
Hi Peter.

I'm surprised that an experienced kiter such as yourself hasn't yet flown a Peak4 :o

Hot launching a Peak4 is easy because the depower is so good and instantaneous when used in its windrange. Unless you're hot launching in ridiculously high wind that you shouldn't be kiting in anyway, the Peak4 will just fly quickly to the top of the window with minimal pull if you sheet out and depower the kite. It doesn't drag you along at all.

If you're coming from a twin skin foil or LEI kite experience this answer will not seem to make sense as a hot launch from either of these type of kites will usually involve a bit of a drag or at least a number of steps along the beach at the kite rises to the zenith. The Peak4 also flaps when depowered fully which also reduces its speed somewhat as it rises to the zenith further reducing the pull.

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Re: extend the low end; single skin, cloud, foil kite?

Postby drsurf » Wed Mar 18, 2020 3:37 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:52 pm
Interesting :thumb:

It does not have the same power or peak power as double skin foil kites, but still more than a LEI.

But apart from that, much more depower/range, and by far the kite that can hang in the lowest wind :rollgrin:

Only thing that (still) stops me, is that most of you say the bigger sizes are not nearly as good as the smaller ones...

If so, it should be for waves instead, where they excel.

8) Peter
The question of the power of Peak4 kites is a hard one to answer as they have quite a different type of power delivery to other kites. I think the rough guide to Peak4 power is that they deliver approximately 1.5 times the power of a similar sized LEI kite. Most users I've spoken to experience of a Peak4 5m kite for example would rate it as somewhere between a 7m and 9m LEI kite in power. With a surf foil all you need is just enough wind to get you up on the board and then you can easily foil as the apparent wind does the rest.

I think this is where the discussion of the merits of the larger Peak4 kites compared to the smaller Peak4 kites happens. I think it works like this. If you were on a surfboard or twin tip and wanted a good kite for the waves you will probably find that a 12m LEI wave kite is not as much fun as a 9m LEI wave oriented kite. It's slower and less responsive in circumstances where to ride the wave you want a fast and responsive kite. However if you haven't got enough wind for the 9m kite and the 12m will get you planing and having some fun in the waves will you use it or go home until you can use the smaller kite?

The smaller Peak4 kites are like the 9m and smaller LEI kites. Fast and responsive with phenomenal drift. Great fun in the waves on a surf foil and terrific for other tricks and manoeuvres requiring a fast responsive kite. If you're under 70kg you're good from 8-10 knots to 25 knots plus with these kites. However if you're a 95kg foiler and faced with 10 knots of wind you need to go bigger and the larger Peak4 kites will get you up and foiling. If you're a lightweight and want to foil consistently under 10 knots then it's time to consider a larger Peak4 too. The issue with light wind is that 1 or 2 knots is the difference between foiling or failing and buying a bigger Peak4 to gain 2 or 3 knots at the bottom end is where you have to decide if it's worth it.

To put it simply, small kites in sufficient wind are more fun than large kites of any type in light winds any day when you're using a surf foil. Sure a big twin skin kite will get you going in 6 knots at two or three times the wind speed with freerace foil but I'm only talking about surf foils and manoeuvrability which is where the Peak4 excels. But even as a 65kg foiler I have a Peak4 8m for those occasional light wind days under 10 knots when 5m is not enough. It's still fun :D

And one last thing, TRY A PEAK4 FOR YOURSELF!!

So many questions about the Peak4 are answered just by using one for 5 minutes. It's no surprise that the Peak4 thread viewtopic.php?f=197&t=2401224 on this forum is so popular and has so many positive comments. They are a really good, inexpensive kite, which in combination with a surf foil is a fantastic ride you won't have with any other kite to the best of my experience. Find the nearest Peak4 kiter to you and ask if you can try it and you'll see why he/she is smiling.

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Re: extend the low end; single skin, cloud, foil kite?

Postby vakiter » Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:22 pm

so i picked up a ozone explore 9m. ( my mention of ozone access above was error, sorry).
it doesnt really have enough power to replace my current low-end setup, but is really nice in that it doesnt fall out of sky. havent got enough wind to try it on a foil yet. but dang this kite is soooo sloooow compared to flites.... so slow its hard to generate power through kitespeed.

thanks for all the suggestions.

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Re: extend the low end; single skin, cloud, foil kite?

Postby merl » Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:00 am

About hot launching the peak 4. I think we need to be a bit careful here. When I first got my 5m I did not understand the windrange too well and launched it in over 20 knots one time (well over the limit for HF with this kite). I hot launched and got my arse kicked (went flying forward, landed hard). Just sayin.

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Re: extend the low end; single skin, cloud, foil kite?

Postby Peter_Frank » Thu Apr 02, 2020 2:07 pm

I bought a 3 and 5 m2 Peak4 now, coming in a few days, to see how they work :thumb:

8) Peter
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