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Wingfoiling not foiling?

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Peter_Frank
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Wingfoiling not foiling?

Postby Peter_Frank » Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:55 am

I dont have a chance going upwind, if not foiling :(

Fairly new, so that could be it of course.

But my a bit more experienced and really talented friends say the same thing, hardly impossible to go upwind if wind is not sufficient for foiling. Maybe even lose ground.

I think I read someone saying when learning you should learn to ride and go upwind, non foiling first - but if you go downwind it is not really an option for long :wink:

So the idea you can go out in offshore or at least get around or get in when too light, somewhat diminishes as I see it :roll:

Most boards are 100 litres or less, and short, but it seems most use boards where just possible to stand up with the help of the wing, and as short as possible - as this makes sense in all other respects.

What do wingfoilers say about their ability to hold ground, or even go upwind, when wind too light to foil?

If wind is dead onshore, I can paddle out across the lower water and steep waves, but when standing up I will lose ground so not be able to wait for a puff to get up foiling - a really difficult scenario.

But good practice, learning to stand up in waves from the side and too light wind - you just swear a lot whenever you fall and fail is my experience ha haa - but in the long run you get "tougher" by this, so still good.

Is it easier to hold ground not foiling, when flat water?
But in typical wingfoil winds for 4 to 5 m2 wings, it is always either mega choppy or waves - good use for getting up on foil, but when not sufficient to foil, it seems to get even worse to go upwind not foiling.

Is it difficult maybe not possible, or is it just a matter of a lot more experience, even from the talented guys who can tack and do 360s?

On a windsurfer even a small slalom board, you can go upwind not planing, very slow speed, but still possible to "get around".

How is this on a wingfoil, not foiling?

8) Peter

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Re: Wingfoiling not foiling?

Postby slowboat » Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:31 am

I think losing ground downwind rapidly is a universal challenge when learning. I suspect with the right setup and plenty of wind, experienced riders can wing a little upwind slogging on the surface. There is definitely some technique involved such as bringing the wing towards the rear of your board and aggressively twisting upper body upwind. I have personally concluded that I need to do downwinders until I am able to pop up on foil more efficiently.

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Re: Wingfoiling not foiling?

Postby Peter_Frank » Wed Apr 01, 2020 10:18 am

slowboat wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:31 am
I think losing ground downwind rapidly is a universal challenge when learning. I suspect with the right setup and plenty of wind, experienced riders can wing a little upwind slogging on the surface. There is definitely some technique involved such as bringing the wing towards the rear of your board and aggressively twisting upper body upwind. I have personally concluded that I need to do downwinders until I am able to pop up on foil more efficiently.

Yes, in plenty of wind, maybe...

Dont know, as I suspect you can not go much upwind, if at all, just like a kitefoil foiling versus non foiling - big difference in upwind ability, lost totally in light winds.

So when wind drops somewhat so you definitely can not foil, but still some wind, and you gotta wing it home on the surface - how are the angles here?

Depending on board length also, or? - but we want short fat boards all of us, right :rollgrin:

8) Peter

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Re: Wingfoiling not foiling?

Postby windmaker » Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:35 am

I have seen some small SUP's I think Kalama with a small fin in the middle of the board, perhaps the solution?

Also F-One have an SUP with removable middle side fins for "Winging" without foil.

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Re: Wingfoiling not foiling?

Postby gl » Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:01 pm

Peter, I have no trouble going upwind when off the foil unless the wind drops so low that I can barely feel it. Then I lose ground. I use a larger board, 7' 10" by 30" with 138 litres. I am 80 kg. I am wondering if the large board makes it easier. On gusty days when I drop off the foil I head upwind while waiting for the next guest. I would not say I point high but definitely make good progress upwind.

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Re: Wingfoiling not foiling?

Postby Horst Sergio » Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:13 pm

Hi Peter,

it goes a bit the direction windmaker said with the extra fin in front, which would help, but is not necessary in general.

The lower the volume and the shorter the board is, the harder it will be, but as experienced many times it is still possible even with 150 cm x 72 l board at 63 kg.

The problem is as I remember, that you can't place the wings towing point well over the struts (working as daggerboard / fin) without going with your weight as far back that your boards tail will sink to much.

Secret is that you have to keep body with its weight in front of the board but move wing back, which can cause a lot of tension in your body to bridge the forces and for sure this won't be compfortable for long, but the only way in this combination to go upwind. By the way it is the same problem you have with surfboards riden flat in low wind. To go upwind well also here you have to displace towing points from bodys center of weight which means pulling the bar backwards and will cause the same body tension, less compfort, but more upwind.

Good luck and be happy, that you don't have to go upwind about 200 m not foiling to reach the place with the wind as in some of our lakes :wink:

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Re: Wingfoiling not foiling?

Postby gmb13 » Wed Apr 01, 2020 5:02 pm

Hi Everyone,

I have no problems going upwind without foiling. Either with a Foilboard or a SUP without a foil.

Horst Sergios Tips about Body Weight forward and Fin/Foil farther back are correct.

Here are a few things I can say add to that.

1) A Daggerboard does not really work well. It can actually hinder you as you prevent the boards from turning easily.

2) Most people try to go too fast and power up the wing too much and that drags them down wind. Go slow and get a good balance of angle and speed

3) Some Wings just don't go upwind well when displacing.

4) Keeping Body Tension and back leg pressure is really important.

5) Boards with really rounded edges have a harder time tracking upwind compared to boards where the edges of the bevels are sharp.

6) Try holding the Wings farther forward. I tend to hold the wing at least one handle farther forward when displacing upwind.

You can watch this video from 0.45 to see how to handle the wing in displacement mode.



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Gunnar

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Re: Wingfoiling not foiling?

Postby Peter_Frank » Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:34 pm

Thanks - interesting.

That makes sense indeed.

The overall hydrofoilwing COE when foiling is somewhat forward the mast yes.

And even when we stand "in balance" foiling, it is often in an aft position on the board (even the short ones), meaning we have to move a bit forward so we dont sink the tail too much when lower wind and on the surface.

BUT, we also have to move the (air)wing the opposite way, a lot further rear, while we stand a tad more forward (difficult), so we dont go downwind because the mast COE sideways (the one giving us the most ground upwind when down) must not be far behind the wing COE.

Will try to practice this, in order to get halfwind or upwind when not foiling.

Two very different "trim" settings, foiling versus surface riding :D

Did not know, and hard to say how much the board edges moves the horizontal COE forward from the mast, but apparently a neglectable small amount.

So wing further rear on the surface, than when foiling, to avoid getting downwind :thumb:

8) Peter
Last edited by Peter_Frank on Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Wingfoiling not foiling?

Postby grigorib » Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:38 pm

Most common problem in wing foiling is people use mast while they should have bought STRUT instead. Makes huge difference

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Re: Wingfoiling not foiling?

Postby Peter_Frank » Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:47 pm

grigorib wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:38 pm
Most common problem in wing foiling is people use mast while they should have bought STRUT instead. Makes huge difference

Ha haa, THERE's the problem :naughty:


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