How much more relaxed can it get with a modern foil?

[drsurf]

Having sold quite a few foils to people of all ages and skills, it's been my experience that a large surf foil, approximately 1000 - 1250 sq cm, is easiest to learn on. The biggest problem new foilers find is that the larger foils pop up too quickly. This is easy to fix by using a smaller kite or shimming the stabiliser for less lift.

Or move the foil backward in the box or move forward on the board. This latter option may not always be an option for a beginner as you move too far forward for the center of buoyancy and the nose goes underwater when you pop up on a board

A bigger board also helps as it is less sensitive to foil position, also it is easier to ride on the surface and easier to recover from a touchdown.

I agree the large surf foils 1000-1250 are very easy to learn on and a lot of fun. Some of them even have some decent speed. Having low drag is very conducive to good glide.

Another advantage for surf foils is that you can find some that are not as sharp.

[Peter_Frank]

I think we all agree learning will be easier on a bigger wing.

But the very ability to ride smooth, and later relaxed, straight, is just as easy in fact a bit easier on a less lifting wing, that was my only point.

Have you tried kite foiling on a wingsurfer?

It bucks like crazy because of the huge wing, and is more difficult as so sensitive to kite power
Easy with a wing, not so much with a kite

Peter

[purdyd]

I think we all agree learning will be easier on a bigger wing.

But the very ability to ride smooth, and later relaxed, straight, is just as easy in fact a bit easier on a less lifting wing, that was my only point.

Have you tried kite foiling on a wingsurfer?

It bucks like crazy because of the huge wing, and is more difficult as so sensitive to kite power
Easy with a wing, not so much with a kite

Peter

From this quote I am not sure what you are agreeing to because now it sounds like you do not believe this,

Actually it is "time" that matters regarding your specific question

You will be equally tense on any wing, when learning.

Well my point is the newer surf wings are easier because they don’t buck you off and the larger wings are more stable in roll, and usually yaw.

So I don’t agree that it is in fact easier with a smaller wing.

It might be more fun, agile. and you can likely go faster on a smaller wing, It might not be as hard, as you think, but I still give the edge to a modern larger foil,

However, you are going faster and it will hurt more when you do fall, that might not be a relaxing thought.

I have not tried wingsurfing on water. I have played around with a wing on land.

However, I do know that, that it does produce lift because you have to hold it up. You can’t use it like a windsurfer sail.

I also know that lift can get in your way when you are kitesurfing, throw the kite out and low to the water and it is your weight that is balancing the foil,

Throw the kite overhead and you have to contend with the lift of the kite impacting your balance, and gusts, and sheeting.

This can be good or bad but it is another variable, it can be handy when transitioning to have that lift, but it can get in the way when simply trying to balance the foil in a straight line.

So I suspect it is not just the larger wing you are contending with when getting used to a wing surfer and foil,

I haven’t sup foiled or paddle foiled either and those guys use bigger foils and don’t seem to get bucked off.

[jumptheshark]

IMHO, going faster on smaller wings makes for a lot more leg tension than going slower on bigger wings.

At any stage of progression, the faster you go the more you load up the kite and the faster you have to be with pitch correction.

[Peter_Frank]

Riding straight relaxed, meaning a smooth stable wing not bucking, is easier, on a smaller wing.

A smaller faster (in speed) wing is way more pitch stable

In particular, in the case I answered, when using the same stab size, just a smaller or bigger front wing.

So no, small wings are not more lively, disagree, quite the opposite as I find them a lot easier to ride "clean", because they have a lot less pitching moment, meaning they wont try to change pitch as much as the bigger and more cambered wings.

In fact the big wings, riding slower, feels more lively in the way that they can turn on a dime (because of the slower speed that is).

Still, the big wings got so many advantages over the small ones, for the beginner, that it is the best choice no doubt.

But to the single question regarding riding straight out relaxed without having to correct up and down all the time, a small wing (less pitching moment) is good IMO.

You could of course add a huge stab, to make a big wing easier, yes.

Also, AR plays a big role here, but that is almost another topic, but means a lot regarding ease.

Peter

[purdyd]

Riding straight relaxed, meaning a smooth stable wing not bucking, is easier, on a smaller wing.

A smaller faster (in speed) wing is way more pitch stable

In particular, in the case I answered, when using the same stab size, just a smaller or bigger front wing.

I disagree.

I have two wings, cloud 9 x24 (900cm2) and x28 (1100cm2)

Identical design, same stabilizer. The wings have more lift than their size indicates,

There is no noticeable difference in pitch stability.

The x24 is more nimble in all situations.

The x24 is faster, with a slight difference in low end.

There are two problems when you start foiling, breaching and stalling. When you are beginning, it is hard to get speed and you are closer to the stall speed on the small wing.

This leads to that uncomfortable feeling.

I agree that a smaller foil can reduce breaching. That is a very common problem when you are learning to get up on foil. That is why I recommend a small foil for taxiing and glides.

My experience and observation is that you don’t start really moving until you pass the breaching phase and you don’t start feeling a bit more comfortable until you pass the stalling phase.

So you can learn to go faster, or get a wing that stalls at a slower speed. My experience and observation is you will feel comfortable sooner and spend more time on foil with the bigger wing.

I agree that time one water is really what will make you feel more comfortable, And you won’t be truly comfortable until you can handle more speed.

Foiling is hard enough to learn, I would take advantage of proper equipment for your ability.

Peter, always a pleasure to hear your point of view.

[Peter_Frank]

Thanks purdyd

But from 900 to 1100 it would hardly be noticeable.

If you go from a 500-600 to a 1000-1200 cm2, with same stab, you will notice a significant difference in terms of not being as smooth and easy.

But as said, almost the only advantage

Peter

[Flyboy]

Reading all this makes me anxious to get out on the damn water already! I will be curious to directly compare my 700 cm LP carbon foil & my 1000cm Gong foil back-to-back. I found the LP foil pretty pitchy at first but once dialled in it is wonderfully smooth & "slippery". It requires a real commitment to get up on the wing initially. The Gong pops up more smoothly, as you would expect, & is then very smooth & stable & reasonably fast. The biggest difference between the two is the stability through turns.