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Armstrong Foil is junk

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patrelsa
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Re: Armstrong Foil is junk

Postby patrelsa » Sun May 31, 2020 3:12 pm

They cant ....its a manufacturing issue...there is no way the fuselage can cut a gouge into the wing....if there was sand inside the wing,the fuselage would not even begin to enter the wing,it would taper lock and would be difficult to remove

tkaraszewski
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Re: Armstrong Foil is junk

Postby tkaraszewski » Sun May 31, 2020 3:21 pm

slowboat wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 11:54 am
If we accept what you are saying, will the "wear over time" look like the gouges in the pictures posted? I am having trouble understanding how gouges like that can happen.
The hexagonal mandrel fit into the wing has the same profile as a allen wrench fit into a hex screw. The motion of the wing through every tack or gybe will cause it to “rock” on the mandrel to the opposite side where the profile engages. If the fit is perfect, then there is no movement. But if the fit is loose at all, then this rocking motion is going to have the same effect as trying to tighten a hex screw with too small a wrench, which would possibly strip the screw. What a stripped hex screw looks like is that there are gouges just to the side of each corner, and as it gets worse, it progresses towards just being a round hole. Also, once it starts to strip, it’s sort of a lost cause, as nothing fits it correctly and so every attempt to tighten or loosen it tends to strip it more.

This looks a lot like what we see in the pictures of this wing, so the damage seems to fit the theory to me.

This is also the point of having a taper on these two parts and fastening then in compression, like a tuttle box does: it ensures that as long as the fastener is tight, there is never any play in the connection, so there’s no chance for movement to start this “stripping” process. This is why I think locating the screws for a connection like this on the side of the connection rather than the end of the connection is a design flaw.

Note that I have no personal experience with Armstrong foils other than demoing one for a few minutes, and I don’t know how common this type of damage is, but I still wouldn’t design a foil attachment this way if I was building it.
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Re: Armstrong Foil is junk

Postby jakemoore » Sun May 31, 2020 4:26 pm

tkaraszewski wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 3:21 pm
If the fit is perfect,
And it never is! So for example I wonder about mast - board box connections and fast fuse connections in addition to this type of box connection of wing to fuse. Unfortunately there is always some play and therefore some wear.

Does switching parts accelerate the wear? If for example using two such wings on one fuselage would the fuse and most used wing surfaces wear together and match? Then switching wings creates accelerated wear for both due to the mismatch? Same for switching boards with a box connection or mast and fuse?
patrelsa wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 6:28 pm
cheap armstrong setup.....
If you are talking ..very.. cheap and can ship to USA for cheap I would enjoy doing some destructive tests on it.

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Re: Armstrong Foil is junk

Postby purdyd » Sun May 31, 2020 5:19 pm

The wing and mast are not tight until you tighten the bolts. That is different than the slingshot wings I had. But not really different than systems where the fuselage does not insert into the wing.

If the bolts get loose or break, I think there will be a lot of wear on the Armstrong setup.

I did have a wear issue on my cloud ix mast to fuselage connection but that was literally hundreds of hours, They remolded the connection to perfectly match.
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Re: Armstrong Foil is junk

Postby plummet » Sun May 31, 2020 9:29 pm

Based on the attitude of the op and his roughness on gear I am 95% sure this wear and tear has been caused by harsh treatment and heavy riding rather than a genuine design fault or manufacturing error.

In normal terms I would say not warrantable. But the offer by the owner of the company stating it will not break renders the standard warrantee void. He now should honor his statements.
In my opinion, making such and offer is very foolish. No matter how idiot proof you make something the universe will supply a better idiot...........
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Armie Armstrong
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Re: Armstrong Foil is junk

Postby Armie Armstrong » Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:34 pm

I did meet Peter Hasler in Hood River last year where he was absolutely stoked riding our CF1200 with his unique style and board. He is a larger than life character and a ripper on the foil - I’m sure he gets more water time than most. I do not recall ever stating that our gear is indestructible but we do strive to make it as strong as possible. I would like to point out we are NOT looking at a broken part here - Possibly a manufacturing defect missed by our QC and Peter for a year of use - or some accidental or deliberate damage.

This Foil System has been successfully in production since 2017 and we have had only a single front foil replaced due to breakage (ridden in waves on the North Shore of Oahu).
In any manufacturing system there sometimes can be issues that are invisible to QC and need to be addressed. That is why We stand by our industry-leading 1 year warranty.
https://www.armstrongfoils.com/warranty ... ds-policy/

Our Large diameter 100% Carbon fuse with titanium core is hex shaped to allow stronger mast and wing Layups within Hydrodynamic shapes. It is NOT designed to be an ultra-tight tapered spline requiring a lot of force to close the taper. In fact, the Key area of the fuse to wing fitting is parallel. We use custom made 316L screws with enlarged heads - into the solid Titanium threaded core - that compress the parts onto the hex to achieve one of the smoothest rides in the game.
The Main reason for the Taper is Hydrodynamic - so that we can fit the fuse 100% Inside the front foil Wings - even our thinner higher performance foils all fit onto the same system - and anyone with our system can upgrade to higher performance foils as required when they progress.
We have NEVER used Titanium screws in our foils so I have no idea what he is on about there, and clearly he hasn’t read our simple assembly instructions that point this out.

For the record this claim was received on precisely the last day of the 1 year warranty period - 27th May 2020 (though we would have investigated it openly even if the warranty period had recently ended).
It was still in the proper process of being followed up - as clearly communicated by our top Customer Service Representative who had made very polite inquiries and had asked for some further pictures and video so the normal and proper process could be followed. Unfortunately at the request for a video of the issue, Peter sent an abusive e-mail to our Customer Service Rep - that we were trying to decide exactly how to follow up on.

The initial e mail and following picture he sent (not all the pictures included here were sent to us) was too unclear to determine what exactly had caused the problem, which is why further video was requested. Normally we require a picture of the whole part with clear detailed close pictures and a video to remotely assess a problem. I’m sure with the requested images/video that we could have determined if there was some manufacturing defect and we now remain more than happy to replace this front foil if that is in fact the case.

Sincerely
Armie Armstrong.
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tkaraszewski
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Re: Armstrong Foil is junk

Postby tkaraszewski » Mon Jun 01, 2020 3:43 pm

Armie Armstrong wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:34 pm
It is NOT designed to be an ultra-tight tapered spline requiring a lot of force to close the taper. In fact, the Key area of the fuse to wing fitting is parallel.
If this is the case, then my assessment of a design flaw is wrong. It looks like it’s supposed to operate in the same way as a Tuttle box, but apparently it isn’t, so I misjudged how this attachment is supposed to work.
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patrelsa
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Re: Armstrong Foil is junk

Postby patrelsa » Mon Jun 01, 2020 3:55 pm

Im pretty sure I mentioned to mr armstrong I broke 2 lift 200 wings and his reply was ,you wont break the armstrong.BUT I could be wrong about that.Im pretty sure I sent mr armstrong all the same pictures that I put on this post,but i could be wrong about that.I was 1 day out of warranty so YES i was wrong about that,its not under warranty.I sent disgruntled email when their warranty departments first statement was Mr Armstrong said this is wear and tear and then what threw me off ,they offered me a 10 % discount on a new wing,I took that as a slap in the face.I was not interested in dealing with their warranty after this ,as I knew it would be a waste of my time.I do not want a warranty any more.I just want to inform people who are more than 200 pounds and ride powered up and turn alot...may not want to pay $2700 for a foil set up that is worthless in 1 year......there are many failures ive had with armstrong foil ,they may all be wear and tear.,but my complaint was with 1600 wing internal wall cut(simlply not wear and tear).As i mentioned before,an armstrong ambassador said hes never seen damage like the cut in 1600 wing.Thank you mr armstrong for explaining everything, rather than just telling me wear and tear.If anyone knows of a strong long lasting foil setup,please let everyone know,because armstrong is not it.

patrelsa
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Re: Armstrong Foil is junk

Postby patrelsa » Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:25 pm

Yes I was wrong again,They do not use titanium bolts,I thought i heard that in one of your many youtube videos...But one last thing mr armstrong can you explain what we are seening in these pictures of the internal part of a 1600 armstrong wing.I would like an answer for future armstrong customers,PLEASE AND THANK YOU.....i was 100 % sure my wing to fuselage bolts were tight before every session,like i said before most of them snapped off just from snugging them up....if you answer this I will post no more,thank you
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patrelsa
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Re: Armstrong Foil is junk

Postby patrelsa » Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:35 pm

And I surely didnt do any deliberate damage to a $2700 foil to try and get a warranty😂😃😄😅


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