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Large wings for foiling

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azoele
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Large wings for foiling

Postby azoele » Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:58 am

Hello all,

I am curious whether very large front wings (i.e. Moses 873) can be helpful for extremely low wind kite foiling for very large kiters.
Searching through the forum I gathered that the consensus is for them to be just too big for kiting, and good for Wingfoiling and Supfoiling.
But... the consensus is usually established considering "average" kiter characteristics.
In my case, I'm very green at kiting and foiling, and am around 110Kg.

Would a very large wing help extreme low wind in a case like mine?
My setup is a 633 Onda, which is a very sweet ride despite my very limited experience.
But when conditions are truly marginal, I may lose too much speed and drop from foil, having no time to work the kite (especially a large one) to get further impulse and proceed foiling.

I tried a 790, and while feeling it more stable, it did provide some – but limited – improvement in low speed.
Not as quick as the 633m, but only moderately more lifting.
As I've seen 70Kg people on the 790, the question came despite what I've read: if they can tame a 1500sqcm wing, maybe I'll be able to tame a 2100 wing and get some help in really low winds? :roll:

Thanks a bunch! (those wings ain't exactly cheap... :roll: :D )

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Re: Large wings for foiling

Postby tkaraszewski » Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:12 am

Big wings don’t require less power to move, they just move slower without falling off foil. The hardest part of foiling, in terms of amount of power required from the kite, is waterstarting, and the amount of power required there doesn’t change much with wing size.

If you have enough power in the kite to pull your body up out of the water and onto the foil, you can get the foil up to 7 knots on a big foil or 11 knots on a small foil East enough, which is enough to keep you moving. If anything an extra large foil has more drag, which might make it worse in light winds.

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Re: Large wings for foiling

Postby PrfctChaos » Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:42 am

I enjoy a large wing in light winds. Using a 1000 cm^2 surf wing normally and will go for the Neil Pryde large (~1600 cm^2) in light winds.

At low speed large wings can have less drag that a small wing (at the same speed). This is because the smaller wing will be at a high angle of attack, where efficiency starts to drop off.

The other difference is that you can just go slower on the large wings. Drag increases with velocity squared, but only linearly with wing area. So going slower does a lot for reduced drag.

Also find it easier to get up with the large wing, likely because when in waterstart position, the big wing gives good resistance for the kite to pull against, and not get pulled downwind much.

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Re: Large wings for foiling

Postby Flyboy » Sun Jun 14, 2020 6:13 am

I'm not 110 kg, so I can't comment on what size wing you would need ... but I will say that as you start getting into really light wind, the limiting factor may be the kite rather than the wing. At 80 kg I feel a 1000 sq cm wing is all I need to get going - I can start if there is enough wind to reliably fly my tube kite (ie around 9 - 10 knots). Less than that I would need a more efficient light wind kite regardless of the wing size. I'm guessing that at at 110 kg you would need a 1200 - 1500 sq cm wing as the equivalent to my 1000. I think that larger than that is going to produce decreasing benefits.

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Re: Large wings for foiling

Postby azoele » Sun Jun 14, 2020 8:39 am

tkaraszewski wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:12 am
Big wings don’t require less power to move, they just move slower without falling off foil. The hardest part of foiling, in terms of amount of power required from the kite, is waterstarting, and the amount of power required there doesn’t change much with wing size.

If you have enough power in the kite to pull your body up out of the water and onto the foil, you can get the foil up to 7 knots on a big foil or 11 knots on a small foil East enough, which is enough to keep you moving. If anything an extra large foil has more drag, which might make it worse in light winds.
Waterstart is an "almost" solved problem: maybe it takes a couple of downloops, but I usually can get up even in very marginal winds (on a Peak 4 13m). Problem is that, while foiling, waves can rob me of energy, or I can't get enough apparent, or after a gybe I lose too much speed. So I touch down, and it ends, as there's too little wind.
Hence, the idea of gaining more support from a large wing.

Still not good enough to downloop a large wing while moving, unfortunately :oops:
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azoele
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Re: Large wings for foiling

Postby azoele » Sun Jun 14, 2020 8:46 am

Flyboy wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 6:13 am
I'm not 110 kg, so I can't comment on what size wing you would need ... but I will say that as you start getting into really light wind, the limiting factor may be the kite rather than the wing. At 80 kg I feel a 1000 sq cm wing is all I need to get going - I can start if there is enough wind to reliably fly my tube kite (ie around 9 - 10 knots). Less than that I would need a more efficient light wind kite regardless of the wing size. I'm guessing that at at 110 kg you would need a 1200 - 1500 sq cm wing as the equivalent to my 1000. I think that larger than that is going to produce decreasing benefits.
Thanks, perhaps given similar conditions you'd be just right.
But I'm probably pushing the envelope a bit more (or mosre than I should...).
I have troubles at 5/6 knots: the kite will stay up easily, but such a light wind, combined with my admittedly limited abilities, I find extremely challenging... already 7 knots is much ore forgiving with the Peak 13m.
Hence the hope that a huge wing might keep me foiling enough to get another impulse from the kite in the limit situation.
Just speculation on my side, obviously, which needs a bit of input before buying the wing: I've spent so much on this sport in a year I have dreams of my banker calling me at night!!! :D

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Re: Large wings for foiling

Postby azoele » Sun Jun 14, 2020 8:51 am

PrfctChaos wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:42 am
I enjoy a large wing in light winds. Using a 1000 cm^2 surf wing normally and will go for the Neil Pryde large (~1600 cm^2) in light winds.

At low speed large wings can have less drag that a small wing (at the same speed). This is because the smaller wing will be at a high angle of attack, where efficiency starts to drop off.

The other difference is that you can just go slower on the large wings. Drag increases with velocity squared, but only linearly with wing area. So going slower does a lot for reduced drag.

Also find it easier to get up with the large wing, likely because when in waterstart position, the big wing gives good resistance for the kite to pull against, and not get pulled downwind much.
This is excellent news, many thanks!

1600sqcm is a lot more than the 633 already.
Plus, I hate speed: I had a ton of hard crashes early on learning, and now, I just prefer cruising very slowly. Love it when there's enough wind to just go around at 9/10 knots as per my watch's GPS.

What exactly is the issue with very large wings?

• Do they lose carving ability?
This interests me... to a point: am not enough developed to do anything on waves yet (I try to catch them, and not get thrown in the air for now :D )
• Do they go too slow?
Not really a point, given I'm quite impact-shocked already :roll: :D
• Something else I can't think about?

I probably wouldn't buy the 790: didn't try it in really marginal winds, so it's an unknown variable at this time, but while felt some lifting increase, didn't truly see it as enough to warrant the expense compared to the 633.

Thanks again for the help!

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Re: Large wings for foiling

Postby AndersP » Sun Jun 14, 2020 9:19 am

The heavier you are, the higher the stall speed will be. And also the resistance in low speeds just above stall speed.

For me it is obvious that a 110kg kiter should have a larger wing than a lighter one in weak winds

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Re: Large wings for foiling

Postby bigtone667 » Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:25 am

For low wind kiting I use either a Naish 2450 or Axis 1020 paired with the Naish Hover 155..... add an old 17m strutless Cloud on 32m race lined and I am having fun from 6/7 knots.

Everything is slow but heaps of fun. I am 105kg.

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Re: Large wings for foiling

Postby slowboat » Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:24 pm

tkaraszewski wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:12 am
Big wings don’t require less power to move, they just move slower without falling off foil. The hardest part of foiling, in terms of amount of power required from the kite, is waterstarting, and the amount of power required there doesn’t change much with wing size.

If you have enough power in the kite to pull your body up out of the water and onto the foil, you can get the foil up to 7 knots on a big foil or 11 knots on a small foil East enough, which is enough to keep you moving. If anything an extra large foil has more drag, which might make it worse in light winds.
The other aspect of the water start equation is sinking the foil. Some big foils are hard to sink when on their side.


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