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Large wings for foiling

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Flyboy
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Re: Large wings for foiling

Postby Flyboy » Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:43 pm

azoele wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 8:46 am
Flyboy wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 6:13 am
I'm not 110 kg, so I can't comment on what size wing you would need ... but I will say that as you start getting into really light wind, the limiting factor may be the kite rather than the wing. At 80 kg I feel a 1000 sq cm wing is all I need to get going - I can start if there is enough wind to reliably fly my tube kite (ie around 9 - 10 knots). Less than that I would need a more efficient light wind kite regardless of the wing size. I'm guessing that at at 110 kg you would need a 1200 - 1500 sq cm wing as the equivalent to my 1000. I think that larger than that is going to produce decreasing benefits.
Thanks, perhaps given similar conditions you'd be just right.
But I'm probably pushing the envelope a bit more (or mosre than I should...).
I have troubles at 5/6 knots: the kite will stay up easily, but such a light wind, combined with my admittedly limited abilities, I find extremely challenging... already 7 knots is much ore forgiving with the Peak 13m.
Hence the hope that a huge wing might keep me foiling enough to get another impulse from the kite in the limit situation.
Just speculation on my side, obviously, which needs a bit of input before buying the wing: I've spent so much on this sport in a year I have dreams of my banker calling me at night!!! :D
Yes - you're talking about pushing the envelope to its limit. For that you need a big, very efficient kite & a big wing will help. Your weight is obviously also going to be a factor in those winds. I certainly see racers foiling in very light winds without big wings. They use very large, high aspect race kites, floaty boards ... & a lot of finesse. From what I understand large P4s are not the best light wind machines ... so you might have to spend more money on a dedicated light wind kite!

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Re: Large wings for foiling

Postby Trent hink » Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:33 pm

I can't say i agree here.

Having tried the slingshot infinity 99 alongside my own 1200 cm2 foil in very marginal wind, the difference was night and day.

No chance getting up on my foil with the 11m peak 4. But with the infinity 99 and peak it was pretty easy to get going.

The difference seems to be not just how much weight the kite pull up, but also how much leverage you can apply against the pull of the kite.

With the board on its side and half a meter of wing sticking down in the water, you get much more leverage against the kite and much less side-slipping on the down loop(s) to start.

It was a pretty stark difference in my opinion.
tkaraszewski wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:12 am
Big wings don’t require less power to move, they just move slower without falling off foil. The hardest part of foiling, in terms of amount of power required from the kite, is waterstarting, and the amount of power required there doesn’t change much with wing size.

If you have enough power in the kite to pull your body up out of the water and onto the foil, you can get the foil up to 7 knots on a big foil or 11 knots on a small foil East enough, which is enough to keep you moving. If anything an extra large foil has more drag, which might make it worse in light winds.

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Re: Large wings for foiling

Postby Flyboy » Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:51 pm

Yeah - that makes sense. But is there an upper limit to the usefulness of a huge foil for kiting? I'm suggesting that might be around 1500 sq cm ... but have no personal experience to back this up though.

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Re: Large wings for foiling

Postby BOEMIX » Sun Jun 14, 2020 8:42 pm

Mate I habe a moses 873 for wing/wind/sup foil and is able to carry you even when the wind dies, although you need a gust to get flying.

It's my session saver when conditions are too gusty to kite.

But I have to admit I never used it with a kite in steady conditions, cause I have a ketos freeride fot that.

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Re: Large wings for foiling

Postby Trent hink » Sun Jun 14, 2020 10:05 pm

With the infinity 99, i had a really hard time riding it for any distance, but i'm pretty certain it was because my friend had it set all the way forward in his track mount so i had to stand extremely far forward on the board to have any control. So i can't say for sure if it is ok for a guy my weight or not (c. 82kg). My friend is 100kg but even so, i think he had the wrong idea of where to mount the foil in the track.

It is not just leverage, but with the board on its side the wing is generating upwind lift like a dinghy centerboard. So even body-dragging out to deeper water was comparatively super easy.

Nevertheless, it really got up quick in very light wind. And after several tries i managed to go a few hundred meters with some amount of control. I got up easily on every try. I would love to have a chance to try it again but tuned properly.

I used to build big light-wind twintips and still own a short,wide potato-chip style surfboard, and the trick with those boards was rig a size or two smaller if you see anyone else about your weight riding on regular- sized boards. If no one else is out because there is no wind, then rig big.

I suspect it it is very similar with very large foils.

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Re: Large wings for foiling

Postby PrfctChaos » Mon Jun 15, 2020 12:17 am

azoele wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 8:51 am
Love it when there's enough wind to just go around at 9/10 knots as per my watch's GPS.

What exactly is the issue with very large wings?

• Do they lose carving ability?
This interests me... to a point: am not enough developed to do anything on waves yet (I try to catch them, and not get thrown in the air for now :D )
• Do they go too slow?
Not really a point, given I'm quite impact-shocked already :roll: :D
• Something else I can't think
Do they lose carving ability? - I use very short fuse and small race stab, obviously it keeps the big wing feeling loose. I think it carves great. Its my usual prone foil wing.

Theoretically the wide wing spans should be making it les carvy, but honestly you see plenty of prone foil guys ripping and turning tight on wide high aspect wings like axis 900/1000/1010 or gofoil he180/210. These wings are around 900mm to 1000mm wide and turns still look good (short fusss and small stabs generally).

Since you already have a moses setup, would you have a chance to demo a w1100 wing? You will likely know pretty soon if that is TOO big for you or if it suits your style.

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Re: Large wings for foiling

Postby PrfctChaos » Mon Jun 15, 2020 12:29 am

azoele wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 8:51 am
Love it when there's enough wind to just go around at 9/10 knots as per my watch's GPS.

What exactly is the issue with very large wings?

• Do they lose carving ability?
This interests me... to a point: am not enough developed to do anything on waves yet (I try to catch them, and not get thrown in the air for now :D )
• Do they go too slow?
Not really a point, given I'm quite impact-shocked already :roll: :D
• Something else I can't think
Do they lose carving ability? - I use very short fuse and small race stab, obviously it keeps the big wing feeling loose. I think it carves great. Its my usual prone foil wing.

Theoretically the wide wing spans should be making it less carvy, but honestly you see plenty of prone foil guys ripping and turning tight on wide high aspect wings like axis 900/1000/1010 or gofoil he180/210. These wings are around 900mm to 1000mm wide and turns still look good (short fusss and small stabs generally).

Since you already have a moses setup, would you have a chance to demo a w1100 wing? You will likely know pretty soon if that is TOO big for you or if it suits your style.

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Re: Large wings for foiling

Postby matt_81a » Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:13 am

azoele wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 12:58 am
Hello all,

I am curious whether very large front wings (i.e. Moses 873) can be helpful for extremely low wind kite foiling for very large kiters.
Searching through the forum I gathered that the consensus is for them to be just too big for kiting, and good for Wingfoiling and Supfoiling.
But... the consensus is usually established considering "average" kiter characteristics.
In my case, I'm very green at kiting and foiling, and am around 110Kg.

Would a very large wing help extreme low wind in a case like mine?
My setup is a 633 Onda, which is a very sweet ride despite my very limited experience.
But when conditions are truly marginal, I may lose too much speed and drop from foil, having no time to work the kite (especially a large one) to get further impulse and proceed foiling.

I tried a 790, and while feeling it more stable, it did provide some – but limited – improvement in low speed.
Not as quick as the 633m, but only moderately more lifting.
As I've seen 70Kg people on the 790, the question came despite what I've read: if they can tame a 1500sqcm wing, maybe I'll be able to tame a 2100 wing and get some help in really low winds? :roll:

Thanks a bunch! (those wings ain't exactly cheap... :roll: :D )
Not too many "heavy "people foiling I guess ;)
In my personal experience, yes - it helps a lot and works great. As soon as you are out of the water, you are on the foil. Of course you still need the power to drag your body out of the water, but a kite with long lines does the trick there.
When the winds are stronger, downwind is a challenge, lol.
Check out the picture - That's is a Moses Onda 873 with a small Dwarfcraft 3"6" board - works like a charm - even at our "heavy weight".
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Re: Large wings for foiling

Postby Flyboy » Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:09 am

matt_81a wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 5:13 am

Check out the picture - That's is a Moses Onda 873 with a small Dwarfcraft 3"6" board - works like a charm - even at our "heavy weight".
How do you know which way's up? :wink:

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Re: Large wings for foiling

Postby drone » Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:02 am

I'm 105 kg. riding LF Impulse foil ~1200m2, bigger wing will not help you, my problem in low wind is to get on the board, kite just haven't power to pull me out of the water.


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