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Large wings for foiling

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Kamikuza
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Re: Large wings for foiling

Postby Kamikuza » Mon Jun 15, 2020 10:10 am

Flyboy wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:51 pm
But is there an upper limit to the usefulness of a huge foil for kiting? I'm suggesting that might be around 1500 sq cm ... but have no personal experience to back this up though.
I was going to say "depends on rider weight" but then I remembered an e-buddy in Oz who rides with an Axis 1020cm wing and loves it, while I prefer the 660 and consider the 820 pushing upper limit of usefulness...even though I'm heavier than him.

For me, upper limit of usefulness is defined by how easy it is to poke out wing tips when I'm carving around, and how bad I get torqued by turbulence at those long, high-leverage wing tips...

So, in the actual surf, smaller wings are better. In ocean or harbor swell, 880 is about my limit.

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Re: Large wings for foiling

Postby Kamikuza » Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:27 am

PrfctChaos wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 12:29 am
Do they lose carving ability? - I use very short fuse and small race stab, obviously it keeps the big wing feeling loose. I think it carves great. Its my usual prone foil wing.

Theoretically the wide wing spans should be making it less carvy, but honestly you see plenty of prone foil guys ripping and turning tight on wide high aspect wings like axis 900/1000/1010 or gofoil he180/210. These wings are around 900mm to 1000mm wide and turns still look good (short fusss and small stabs generally).

Since you already have a moses setup, would you have a chance to demo a w1100 wing? You will likely know pretty soon if that is TOO big for you or if it suits your style.
Define carving ability...?

Going edge to edge is slower, but if you work in a bit of yaw, you can whip them around quick enough. Once loaded up, they carve fine.

Short fuse and smaller stab for sure is helpful too.

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Re: Large wings for foiling

Postby azoele » Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:27 pm

AndersP wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 9:19 am
The heavier you are, the higher the stall speed will be. And also the resistance in low speeds just above stall speed.

For me it is obvious that a 110kg kiter should have a larger wing than a lighter one in weak winds
Intuitively my idea, too.
Was reluctant to it, but then saw a very lightweight friend fall in love with the 790 after having sworn on smaller wings (smaller than 633).
He just loves it, and has no issue taming the lift despite having 40Kg less than I do.
So thought: perhaps a larger wing will get me some lighter wind help.

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Re: Large wings for foiling

Postby azoele » Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:33 pm

Flyboy wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:43 pm
azoele wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 8:46 am
Flyboy wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 6:13 am
I'm not 110 kg, so I can't comment on what size wing you would need ... but I will say that as you start getting into really light wind, the limiting factor may be the kite rather than the wing. At 80 kg I feel a 1000 sq cm wing is all I need to get going - I can start if there is enough wind to reliably fly my tube kite (ie around 9 - 10 knots). Less than that I would need a more efficient light wind kite regardless of the wing size. I'm guessing that at at 110 kg you would need a 1200 - 1500 sq cm wing as the equivalent to my 1000. I think that larger than that is going to produce decreasing benefits.
Thanks, perhaps given similar conditions you'd be just right.
But I'm probably pushing the envelope a bit more (or mosre than I should...).
I have troubles at 5/6 knots: the kite will stay up easily, but such a light wind, combined with my admittedly limited abilities, I find extremely challenging... already 7 knots is much ore forgiving with the Peak 13m.
Hence the hope that a huge wing might keep me foiling enough to get another impulse from the kite in the limit situation.
Just speculation on my side, obviously, which needs a bit of input before buying the wing: I've spent so much on this sport in a year I have dreams of my banker calling me at night!!! :D
Yes - you're talking about pushing the envelope to its limit. For that you need a big, very efficient kite & a big wing will help. Your weight is obviously also going to be a factor in those winds. I certainly see racers foiling in very light winds without big wings. They use very large, high aspect race kites, floaty boards ... & a lot of finesse. From what I understand large P4s are not the best light wind machines ... so you might have to spend more money on a dedicated light wind kite!
Finesse, I honestly have little.
Began kitesurfing a year and a half ago at max, so am still honing my abilities to have the kite fly: there's still a lot to learn, I'm sure of that.

As to the Peak 4: I own a Ultra 17m, a very nice kite in itself.
I bought the Peaks because was astounded at what the Peak 13m of a friend (he himself 100Kg or so) could do.
Tried his kite, incredibly low wind, my 633, two downloops and there I was foiling.
It was so amazing – especially not having to mind the kite, and not being afraid of it going to the edge of the wind window and fall down, that I was sold immediately.

I am using the Peak with a small bar (Flysurfer Connect bar), which I'm sure is simply too little for that beast (on the Ultra I use a 62cm bar, and find much improvement).

Perhaps switching to a 62 bar with longer lines (i.e. 27 instead of the current 21) might help extract still some more from the kite?

I honestly don't wish to return to other (perhaps a tad more efficient, but certainly more) fatiguing kites needing lots of attention in low wind.
The Peak doesn't fall down: had some nice crashes with it, it just floats there like a happy bag :D

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Re: Large wings for foiling

Postby azoele » Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:36 pm

BOEMIX wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 8:42 pm
Mate I habe a moses 873 for wing/wind/sup foil and is able to carry you even when the wind dies, although you need a gust to get flying.

It's my session saver when conditions are too gusty to kite.

But I have to admit I never used it with a kite in steady conditions, cause I have a ketos freeride fot that.
I'd use the large wind in 5/8 knots, just to roam around and practice jibes.
8 knots I do already very well with the 633 (wrt foiling – manouvers are another issue entirely :) )

How do you find your 873?
I'd like that wing, although I seem to read that everyone is preferring the W1100 to it.
Also, Gong and other manufacturer make large wings too, but they all look to me more like the W1100 (wide and "thin") rather than the 873 (which looks like a 633 on steroids).

Thanks

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Re: Large wings for foiling

Postby azoele » Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:42 pm

PrfctChaos wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 12:17 am
azoele wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 8:51 am
Love it when there's enough wind to just go around at 9/10 knots as per my watch's GPS.

What exactly is the issue with very large wings?

• Do they lose carving ability?
This interests me... to a point: am not enough developed to do anything on waves yet (I try to catch them, and not get thrown in the air for now :D )
• Do they go too slow?
Not really a point, given I'm quite impact-shocked already :roll: :D
• Something else I can't think
Do they lose carving ability? - I use very short fuse and small race stab, obviously it keeps the big wing feeling loose. I think it carves great. Its my usual prone foil wing.

Theoretically the wide wing spans should be making it les carvy, but honestly you see plenty of prone foil guys ripping and turning tight on wide high aspect wings like axis 900/1000/1010 or gofoil he180/210. These wings are around 900mm to 1000mm wide and turns still look good (short fusss and small stabs generally).

Since you already have a moses setup, would you have a chance to demo a w1100 wing? You will likely know pretty soon if that is TOO big for you or if it suits your style.
Unfortunately, no.
My two foil buddies have the 790, although only one uses it, the other is enamoured of the 683s.
I'm the "largest" of the bunch, and the less inclined to speed.
Love to try to approach waves and do very limited carves (remember – am a beginner, and not that talented at that...) but lower speeds are where I really thrive and relax.

I'd have to buy a 873 or 1100 sight unseen.
I'd use it with the 483 stabilizer (which was at first paired to the 873 by Moses itself, then changed to the 450).
That, or go for the tempting new Gong carbon foil, which looks extremely nice, and for which they have wings up to 2500sqcm or so.

If it can help, I'll certainly purchase a larger wing.
Light wind is wonderful to me: flying in silence on the water with just no one (or almost) around, so I'd go the extra few hundreds of euros.
With what I'm reading from the interest comments I received, I'm inclined to try.
Perhaps I might just give a phone call to Moses also, and see what they do suggest.

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Re: Large wings for foiling

Postby azoele » Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:15 pm

Trent hink wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:33 pm
I can't say i agree here.

Having tried the slingshot infinity 99 alongside my own 1200 cm2 foil in very marginal wind, the difference was night and day.

No chance getting up on my foil with the 11m peak 4. But with the infinity 99 and peak it was pretty easy to get going.

The difference seems to be not just how much weight the kite pull up, but also how much leverage you can apply against the pull of the kite.

With the board on its side and half a meter of wing sticking down in the water, you get much more leverage against the kite and much less side-slipping on the down loop(s) to start.

It was a pretty stark difference in my opinion.
tkaraszewski wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:12 am
Big wings don’t require less power to move, they just move slower without falling off foil. The hardest part of foiling, in terms of amount of power required from the kite, is waterstarting, and the amount of power required there doesn’t change much with wing size.

If you have enough power in the kite to pull your body up out of the water and onto the foil, you can get the foil up to 7 knots on a big foil or 11 knots on a small foil East enough, which is enough to keep you moving. If anything an extra large foil has more drag, which might make it worse in light winds.
This is very motivating, thanks.
The Infinity is about 2300sqcm (I just checked), slightly bigger than the 873 and 1100, so it should be of similar help in these conditions (fingers crossed).

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Re: Large wings for foiling

Postby Slappysan » Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:49 am

azoele wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 8:51 am
What exactly is the issue with very large wings?

• Do they lose carving ability?
This interests me... to a point: am not enough developed to do anything on waves yet (I try to catch them, and not get thrown in the air for now :D )
• Do they go too slow?
Not really a point, given I'm quite impact-shocked already :roll: :D
• Something else I can't think about?
The only issue is that they can't go as fast.

I have a NP Surf setup and own the 1032 cm small wing and the 1612 cm large wing and have both the small and large stabs. I'm only 75 kg and only like to foil in the 8-15 knot range.

My favorite setup is to pair the 1612 cm big wing with the small stab. It goes super early, and it still super carvey. I'm not really a fan of going fast and the large wing goes plenty fast enough for me.

I use a Peak 4 5m exclusively, but would like to pick up a 8m version for 8-10 knots.

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Re: Large wings for foiling

Postby Huib » Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:51 am

For lightwind, Ketos have made a special wing which is a little smaller then their biggest wing of 1200cm2. Great stability and an incomparable upwind.
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Re: Large wings for foiling

Postby Peter_Frank » Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:15 pm

Slappysan wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:49 am
azoele wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 8:51 am
What exactly is the issue with very large wings?

• Do they lose carving ability?
This interests me... to a point: am not enough developed to do anything on waves yet (I try to catch them, and not get thrown in the air for now :D )
• Do they go too slow?
Not really a point, given I'm quite impact-shocked already :roll: :D
• Something else I can't think about?

The only issue is that they can't go as fast.

I have a NP Surf setup and own the 1032 cm small wing and the 1612 cm large wing and have both the small and large stabs. I'm only 75 kg and only like to foil in the 8-15 knot range.

My favorite setup is to pair the 1612 cm big wing with the small stab. It goes super early, and it still super carvey. I'm not really a fan of going fast and the large wing goes plenty fast enough for me.

I use a Peak 4 5m exclusively, but would like to pick up a 8m version for 8-10 knots.

Not the only issue.

The bigger the wing, the slower they turn.

Then you have to make them really low AR, for better turning, which makes them go bad upwind and be even more draggy...

I also got the Kruiser wing in above post from Huib (me being 78 kg), for riding in 5 knots of wind or with smaller kites, but when wings get bigger than these 1000 to 1200 cm2 they get slow, and slower turning if not really low AR, so I dont want bigger than that.

In flattish or choppy water, going slow sucks IMO.
On a wave it is great though.

I dont like to go fast either, but most will meet a limit where they find the size makes everything slow and draggy and boring I think.

And with the right kite, low end is not necessarily compromised with a tad smaller but faster and more effective wings, which still turns really fast.

8) Peter


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