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Large wings for foiling

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Huib
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Re: Large wings for foiling

Postby Huib » Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:35 pm

@Peter. Is it not how smaller the stab or the fuselage is, the faster the turn? I can turn so fast with my 1200cm2 wing and XS stab. Much faster and shorter then my friend on a Onda, who is much better foiler then I am.

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Re: Large wings for foiling

Postby dkazhdan » Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:22 pm

I ride with Levitaz Element wing which is 680 sq.cm, me 200 lb. The only limitation I find in light wind is waterstarting and popping up on the foil. The foil is next to impossible to pump so I need to ride the board first to get going.

I think only this prevents me from riding in under 8knots with 12 Gong strutless. Once up on the foil the kite generates enough apparent wind that I can easily ride.

The way I see it is the only benefit of a large wing is easy waterstarting. For the actual riding bigger size just results in more drag. Just my personal experience.

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Re: Large wings for foiling

Postby Peter_Frank » Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:47 pm

Huib wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:35 pm
@Peter. Is it not how smaller the stab or the fuselage is, the faster the turn? I can turn so fast with my 1200cm2 wing and XS stab. Much faster and shorter then my friend on a Onda, who is much better foiler then I am.

Agree, it makes a huge difference, using smaller stabs (or fuselage), so you can get big low AR wings to turn faster.

But in my experience, if really big and higher span, you will still be limited in how "lively" it feels, because of sheer size and span.

It feels like it turns narrow yes, as it goes slower, so the radius can be small indeed, but it is still not as lively IMO.

I love my Kool1200 with an XS stab too, amazing fun and lively indeed :rollgrin:

But using the WaveXL (790 cm2) it is way more lively, and in a different way because it can also go faster and more fluid.

Difficult to explain...

So I prefer the smaller wing when it is almost flat or useless windchop, and if even small waves, the big wing.

And only when marginal wind, the higher span wing for earlier takeoff.

Might just be me :wink:

8) Peter

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Re: Large wings for foiling

Postby Slappysan » Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:20 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:15 pm
The bigger the wing, the slower they turn.
I can't speak to the Ketos wings but with the NP Surf wings the L wing turns very fast and is very agile when paired with the small stab.

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Re: Large wings for foiling

Postby Peter_Frank » Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:46 am

Slappysan wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:20 pm
Peter_Frank wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:15 pm
The bigger the wing, the slower they turn.

I can't speak to the Ketos wings but with the NP Surf wings the L wing turns very fast and is very agile when paired with the small stab.

Of course it turns faster and much better with a smaller stab.

But "very fast/agile" is a very individual term - as I dont find a 1500 cm2 86 cm span wing like the NP L, very lively.

8) Peter

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Re: Large wings for foiling

Postby Kamikuza » Wed Jun 17, 2020 8:17 am

Peter_Frank wrote:
Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:46 am
Of course it turns faster and much better with a smaller stab.

But "very fast/agile" is a very individual term - as I dont find a 1500 cm2 86 cm span wing like the NP L, very lively.

8) Peter
That's because your definition of "lively" differs to other peoples, and your version of "slower turning" is very specific, I'd guess.
Slappysan wrote: I can't speak to the Ketos wings but with the NP Surf wings the L wing turns very fast and is very agile when paired with the small stab.
It's subjective, isn't it.

Wider wings, no matter the area, are "slower" to go straight from rail to rail if you just try to muscle them over.

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Re: Large wings for foiling

Postby Slappysan » Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:19 pm

Mostly I'm just comparing the L wing + small stab to the S wing + small stab for the NP Glide Surf, it should be noted the L and the S wings do not have the same aspect ratio.

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Re: Large wings for foiling

Postby Alysum » Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:00 pm

I actually had a bit of an experiment today kite foiling with the axis 1000HA then 920 (instead of my usual 680) to see what it's like.

Verdict: they work but they are not optimised for kiting. The 1000 is quick but doesn't turn so well and needs power as it sinks quickly.

920 is a bloody door. So stable but slow and a bit boring.

I'm 80kg. Get a quiver of what's right for the discipline :D

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Re: Large wings for foiling

Postby giando » Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:55 am

slowboat wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 1:24 pm
The other aspect of the water start equation is sinking the foil. Some big foils are hard to sink when on their side.
I no longer sink the foil, I just use the front wing against the water and waterstart directly on foil. Works like a charm for strapless.

I'm the 70kg guy with the Moses 790 azoele mentions in the OP, btw :-D

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Re: Large wings for foiling

Postby giando » Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:58 am

Trent hink wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 5:33 pm
I can't say i agree here.

Having tried the slingshot infinity 99 alongside my own 1200 cm2 foil in very marginal wind, the difference was night and day.

No chance getting up on my foil with the 11m peak 4. But with the infinity 99 and peak it was pretty easy to get going.

The difference seems to be not just how much weight the kite pull up, but also how much leverage you can apply against the pull of the kite.

With the board on its side and half a meter of wing sticking down in the water, you get much more leverage against the kite and much less side-slipping on the down loop(s) to start.

It was a pretty stark difference in my opinion.
tkaraszewski wrote:
Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:12 am
Big wings don’t require less power to move, they just move slower without falling off foil. The hardest part of foiling, in terms of amount of power required from the kite, is waterstarting, and the amount of power required there doesn’t change much with wing size.

If you have enough power in the kite to pull your body up out of the water and onto the foil, you can get the foil up to 7 knots on a big foil or 11 knots on a small foil East enough, which is enough to keep you moving. If anything an extra large foil has more drag, which might make it worse in light winds.
Agree, it's all about using the wing itself as leverage against water, not the board. With this technique, the bigger wing size helps, a lot.


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