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Foil for beginning and carving

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gmb13
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Re: Foil for beginning and carving

Postby gmb13 » Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:11 am

iwave wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:57 pm
gmb13 wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:44 pm
iwave wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:10 am
Thanks everybody for your comments, it is all very helpful.

I see 2 main opinions:
1. Those that really enjoy their Moses 633 for the same program I mentioned, and recommend it.
2. And those who think I might not need as big as the 633 (1250 cm2), especially if mainly flat water.

I have a friend that has a 633 and really enjoys it. But he is bigger than me, and I was actually wondering if 1250 could be a little too big for me. So I was leaning towards 1000 cm2. Maybe a foil in the 800 to 1000 range would not lose so much in the low-end at my weight compare to the 633 but would gain in agility and fun factor (as you get better). I think that's what some of the comments were saying.

I am still a little hesitant to begin with a 800 cm2 foil though. For example: Maybe after 1 or 2 years of practice, those would be the better foils to ride. But I am not sure it would be the better foils to get you there. But I may be totally wrong and 800 cm2 is more than enough to begin with. What do you think?

I meant the 1150 or 1650 not the 850 Sonar.

--
Gunnar
Hi Gunnar,
I wanted to emphasize that the Sonar 850 would fit well in the 800-900 category, and it seems to match the low/med-speed carving program quite well.

If the goal is to look for the best trade-off between early lift and lively carving, do you think 1650, or even the 1150, would hit the mark? More than the 850?
Yes. The 1650 and 1150 will work better for what you want. The 850 is great, but takes more power to get going and the 1650 is still amazing for carving .
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TomW
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Re: Foil for beginning and carving

Postby TomW » Sat Jul 11, 2020 2:34 pm

iwave wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:42 pm
TomW wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:40 pm
If you get the gong get: pro M , surf stab 40cm, 90 cm alu mast.
Don't get the 70cm mast or the 40cm kite stab that's spec'd on the kitesurfing setup.
100cm carbon mast is too much in beginning.

I rode moses 633 for 2 years. Great foil. Then tried gong M pro. It's a bit smaller and higher aspect. Same stability but just a tad faster and more glide. More durable too.

Theres a lot of good foils now. agree it's good to choose foil that offers system components.
Thanks, that's quite helpful.
Just to be sure, the link I shared for the 40 cm stab is the surf version (I think). So that would be the right stab to associate with the Surf Pro M, right?
Yes.
You can order surf kit with 69cm alu mast and additional 90cm mast.
Or, kite kit with 90cm alu mast and additional surf stab to replace kite stab.
Option 1 is 20€ cheaper. Option 1 you get short mast to learn on.
BUT, It's not much more difficult to learn on longer mast. It gives you more margin for altitude errors which are bigger difficulty compared to any increased balance difficulty with the extra mast length.
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Re: Foil for beginning and carving

Postby Flyboy » Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:09 pm

TomW wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 2:34 pm
iwave wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:42 pm
TomW wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:40 pm
If you get the gong get: pro M , surf stab 40cm, 90 cm alu mast.
Don't get the 70cm mast or the 40cm kite stab that's spec'd on the kitesurfing setup.
100cm carbon mast is too much in beginning.

I rode moses 633 for 2 years. Great foil. Then tried gong M pro. It's a bit smaller and higher aspect. Same stability but just a tad faster and more glide. More durable too.

Theres a lot of good foils now. agree it's good to choose foil that offers system components.
Thanks, that's quite helpful.
Just to be sure, the link I shared for the 40 cm stab is the surf version (I think). So that would be the right stab to associate with the Surf Pro M, right?
Yes.
You can order surf kit with 69cm alu mast and additional 90cm mast.
Or, kite kit with 90cm alu mast and additional surf stab to replace kite stab.
Option 1 is 20€ cheaper. Option 1 you get short mast to learn on.
BUT, It's not much more difficult to learn on longer mast. It gives you more margin for altitude errors which are bigger difficulty compared to any increased balance difficulty with the extra mast length.
I learned on a full length (90cm) mast. I think it makes the first few sessions "scarier", because when you fall, you fall from a greater height! A short mast, like 40cm) makes it easier to manoeuvre the board in the water & easier to ride the board ON the water. However, in the end you have to commit to the foil & the short mast discourages that commitment. 65cm might be worth having though, as a learning step & for shallow water later.
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Re: Foil for beginning and carving

Postby RalfsB » Sat Jul 11, 2020 6:31 pm

iwave wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:14 pm
Do you use the 70 cm mast for flat water or waves?
...
I thought the 70 cm would be much easier to learn on.
But we have a lot of chops at my local conditions, and sometimes quite nasty chops. And I wonder if 70cm could be 10-15cm too short when the chop is bad.
I am using it in the sea, so there is some chop/waves but I use foil in relatively light winds (like 4-7 m/s) so waves are not too high and 70 cm mast is enough. I also like the 70cm mast since it allows starting in shallower places (sea at the shore here is usually shallow and has many sand banks). 70cm is good for learning too, more stability and less falling if you go all the way up.
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Re: Foil for beginning and carving

Postby iwave » Sat Jul 11, 2020 6:53 pm

I checked the price of the package Gong Allvator Surf Pro M + Surf Stab 40cm + Carbon Surf Pro Mast & Fuselage monobloc 70cm.
At 949 euros ($1072 USD), it's hard to beat for a full carbon setup!!

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Re: Foil for beginning and carving

Postby TomW » Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:52 pm

iwave wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 6:53 pm
I checked the price of the package Gong Allvator Surf Pro M + Surf Stab 40cm + Carbon Surf Pro Mast & Fuselage monobloc 70cm.
At 949 euros ($1072 USD), it's hard to beat for a full carbon setup!!
Don't get the 70 cm mast!!! If you really have to get the carbon mast, get the 100cm. But very much recommend you get the 90 cm alu mast to start.
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Re: Foil for beginning and carving

Postby Flyboy » Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:11 pm

TomW wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:52 pm
iwave wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 6:53 pm
I checked the price of the package Gong Allvator Surf Pro M + Surf Stab 40cm + Carbon Surf Pro Mast & Fuselage monobloc 70cm.
At 949 euros ($1072 USD), it's hard to beat for a full carbon setup!!
Don't get the 70 cm mast!!! If you really have to get the carbon mast, get the 100cm. But very much recommend you get the 90 cm alu mast to start.
Again, I agree with Tom. I would recommend getting the 65cm & 90cm alu masts to start. They are pretty inexpensive & you can always add a 70cm or a 100cm carbon mast/fuse later. I'm hoping that at some point Gong will release a 90cm carbon mast. I still think the 100 cm is an odd choice for the "kite mast", as I believe that the number of people wanting a 100cm carbon set-up these days would be much less than the number of people wanting a 90cm carbon set-up ... but whatever.
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Re: Foil for beginning and carving

Postby iwave » Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:22 pm

Could you please explain why getting the 70cm carbon mast would be a bad idea, whereas getting the 65cm alu mast would be a good learning step?

My guess is that with a 65cm alu setup you can easily and cheaply add the 90cm alu mast to the same setup.
Whereas with the 70cm carbon setup, upgrade to a taller mast means buying the entirely new 100cm carbon setup (or the 90cm alu setup).
So is it just a monetary reason?

And is there a big difference in riding between a 90cm mast and a 100cm mast?

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Re: Foil for beginning and carving

Postby Flyboy » Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:58 pm

iwave wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:22 pm
Could you please explain why getting the 70cm carbon mast would be a bad idea, whereas getting the 65cm alu mast would be a good learning step?

My guess is that with a 65cm alu setup you can easily and cheaply add the 90cm alu mast to the same setup.
Whereas with the 70cm carbon setup, upgrade to a taller mast means buying the entirely new 100cm carbon setup (or the 90cm alu setup).
So is it just a monetary reason?

And is there a big difference in riding between a 90cm mast and a 100cm mast?
I wouldn't say buying the 70cm carbon mast would be a "bad idea", just expensive, unless you are intending to stick with a 70cm mast. A 65cm alu mast is only 59 Euros, so a worthwhile investment in learning & as a backup for shallow water situations. I also have a 100cm carbon foil. The light weight is nice for carrying to the beach & manoeuvring in the water, but not that noticeable when you're actually foiling. There is the other consideration that you may be more likely to damage a carbon mast/fuselage while you're learning, although that would depend somewhat on the local conditions.

An extra 10 cm gives you an added margin for error to avoid breaching, most significant if you are driving hard upwind (ie. racing), but the extra length will add to the intimidation factor when you're learning. There is some disagreement about whether a shorter mast (70cm - 80cm) is preferable for wave foiling - perhaps someone else will weigh in on that. In general though, when you are going though the learning process (other than the first 3 or 4 sessions) having a longer mast will reduce the amount of breaching/crashing.
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TomW
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Re: Foil for beginning and carving

Postby TomW » Sun Jul 12, 2020 2:17 pm

iwave wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:22 pm
Could you please explain why getting the 70cm carbon mast would be a bad idea, whereas getting the 65cm alu mast would be a good learning step?

My guess is that with a 65cm alu setup you can easily and cheaply add the 90cm alu mast to the same setup.
Whereas with the 70cm carbon setup, upgrade to a taller mast means buying the entirely new 100cm carbon setup (or the 90cm alu setup).
So is it just a monetary reason?

And is there a big difference in riding between a 90cm mast and a 100cm mast?
The 70 cm carbon mast is expensive. It is intended for non-kiting foiling and is too short for general kite foiling. Some people will start debating this, good for waves, more direct feeling, bla, bla, bla. but it is not valid debate for beginners learning to kite foil, except for first 3-5 sessions. Why buy an expensive short mast for those sessions?? Get a short alu mast if you really want to have this easier step in.

The 90 cm alu mast is cheaper and is 100% good for first 2 years.
I've been on a 90 for almost 4 years from day one. Yes, the face plants are harder, but if I can do it on 90 cm and 550 cm2 wing at 57 years ar ( then) I'm sure you can On a 1000cm + wing.
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